Walker: “Our unemployment rate is not only lower than the national average, but much better than our neighbors to the south in Illinois.”

Reality: Wisconsin's unemployment rate was consistently lower than the national average—and Illinois' unemployment rate—throughout the entire recent recession. Walker is trying to take credit for Wisconsin's comparatively lower unemployment rate during the Doyle administration

This garbage spewed by Walker sound so much like his speech. The best part of that speech was when a courageous woman said: LIAR! She spoke the truth unlike our soon to booted governor. He will be forced to leave by indictment or recall. Either way- it will be indeed a great day for Wisconsin. And yet there will still be those that can't understand why all the fuss. They will blames it on the DA or the unions. Open your eyes Walker backers- your man is not worthy to lead our cherished Wisconsin.

@JT -

You do realize that you're just cutting and pasting talking points from the article linked to by Thurston Howell III lower down on this board, don't you?

Do you have any original ideas of your own to add to the discussion, as we can all follow the link and read the talking points just fine on our own?

Walker: “We balanced the state budget.”
 

Reality: First of all, the state constitution requires a balanced budget, so every governor's budget in Wisconsin has been balanced. As always, however, the devil is in the details. Walker's “balanced” budget depends on which accounting process is used. When cash accounting is used, the state's budget is balanced. But when Generally Accepted Accounting Principles' (GAAP) accrual accounting is used (as it is for publicly traded and privately held companies), Walker's 2011-2013 budget ends with a $3 billion deficit (worse than Doyle's last budget deficit, by the way).
 

Walker likes to highlight his so-called balanced budget when pitching his skills to the media and the deep-pocketed donors who are underwriting his recall defense, yet at other times he claims the opposite. In a letter to the federal government, the Walker administration claimed that the state would have a budget deficit through 2013, the end of his current biennial budget. If the Obama administration buys Walker's claim, Walker could then kick tens of thousands of people off of BadgerCare.

Walker is trying to have it both ways to suit his political needs: bragging about balancing the budget to appear fiscally responsible, but saying the budget is not balanced so that he can destroy Wisconsin's safety net.

Oh, and expect huge cut n' paste from JT (any relation to jt?)

adam, i truly do not know who the other JT is. but i do agree with his posts.

I accept the challenge and ask that my fellow Walker supporters do the same!

@Adam Wienieski -

Don't stoop to the level of trying to bait them into a flame war! Let's support Walker by keeping it civil and showing them that our ideas are superior - not our name calling.

Heather ... There is no new news in Walkers spew. Hoffa's spewing blames the states economical problems on the Dems but Walker and no one but Walker created the turmoil that the state is now currently going thru. Walker has not created any jobs. How can the state even begin to make any attempt to move forward in the right direction when you have a Governor that refused to and refuses to work with any and all the people in the state. Walker has divided the state, not the two political parties. Walker has been out of the state more then at his desk working on important state issues. Has Walker been out on the road touring states for fund raisers for the recall or to help pay for his Top Two notch Gun Lawyers representing him in the John Doe Investigation. When the John Doe investigation is completed I hope that those that spew their anger on others on both sides come to the realization that Walker was a con man and not the right man for the states most prestigious position.

@Bucky -

"How can the state even begin to make any attempt to move forward in the right direction when you have a Governor that refused to and refuses to work with any and all the people in the state."

That's the problem with your side - you don't consider Walker supporters as being legitimate citizens of the state, as from our perspective, he's doing everything he promised he'd do during his campaign either to the best of his ability or as is practical to accomplish at such moment in time. Just because he's not listening to you doesn't mean that he's not listening to us, does it?

You had your voices heard and agendas fulfilled the last eight years under Doyle and a largely Democratic legislature, did you not? So why can't we have our turn now without all the disruption and hateful vitriol?

Jim, Disagree, Its not my people or your people, its all the people. Don't you think that
all people may have been effected in a negative manner because of Walkers reforms ? Probably a pretty poor analogy on my part but Walker reminds me of a
" Woman Beater ", 1st you break em , then you beat em up, while at the same time telling everyone how much he loves them and that we all need to come together as one. Sorry does not work that way and then you have Tommy Thompson fueling the fire treating to those that stand in his way will be beaten " Black and Blue ". Is this what you really support and stand for in Wisconsin, I don't.

Jim because you have a side, why do you assume that I have a side ? When a national disaster takes place , there are no sides . When we go to war, there are no sides. When a medical emergency arises there are no sides. I want to be on the side that has no sides with people that work together only for the good of everyone, not just for the good of one side. Jim put yourself in a life and dead situation , are you going to refuse to go under the knife in an emergency room because the surgeon has Democratic affiliations ? I have never seen a small or large Republican business owner refuse to take in payment for goods rendered Union Made Dollars. If Union people are all " Thugs " and labeled a wide variety of other names then why don' the small and large Republican business owners place large signs in their store fronts stating that they do not accept union made dollars ? I am sure that those hard working Union people would be more then happy to take their money else where and spend it.

Walker: “Last year, I appointed the bipartisan Commission on Waste, Fraud and Abuse. The members turned in their final report earlier this month. In it, they identified over $400 million in savings for the taxpayers.”
 

Reality: The report was never voted on by the members of the committee and can't be taken seriously. According to the Democratic committee members—state Sen. Chris Larson (D-Milwaukee) and state Rep. Mark Pocan (D-Madison)—the report includes savings found in federal programs rather than state programs. They also said the commission recommended that the state Department of Revenue go after tax cheats, but Walker cut $2 million from the state's tax collection efforts

@Bucky -

"Don't you think that all people may have been effected in a negative manner because of Walkers reforms?"

Actually, no I don't, because I've been effected positively by his reforms and I'm a person, aren't I? Not to mention everyone in my family as well, and they are all people too, aren't they?

I didn't like Tommy's statement either, nor am I particularly excited about him running for the vacating senate seat. In fact, if you check the article where Thompson declared his candidacy, you will see that I don't endorse him at all. I'll probably be voting third party or independent in that election.

And yes Bucky, we all know that you have a side via the history of comments that you've made here on Patch. You do absolutely nothing but trash Walker and the GOP every time you make a comment. Do you deny this FACT?

And for the record, I've never called any union member 'thugs' ever. I may have referred to some tactics as being 'thuggish' in nature, but I never called anyone a thug. In fact, I come from a multi-generation UAW family that also happens to be local business owners/operators.

You may want to lay off the unfounded assumptions in the future, as you must know what they make you look like, don't you?

I think that Jesus is ashamed of the Republican Party after all Jesus was a carpenter and started the 1st carpenters union, and 2nd Jesus was a teacher and was a member of the local teachers union. Thank you Jesus for being a good Union Man.

@Bucky -

In case you didn't get the memo, we're trying to keep Jesus, religion, and theology out the discussion, as Walker doesn't mention any of things anywhere as being the basis for the issues he discusses. Let's try to stay on topic and keep it civil.

Thanks!

You have got to be kidding with the Jesus statement. Either you excel at being sacrilegious or have absolutely no idea what His life was about. It would be appreciated by those of us who still believe in Judeo-Christianity if you would to leave it out of the political realm. Do show some respect and apoligize for your statement.

Jesus would say "Shame on you for lying". The current fiscal tear has a $2.99 billion dollar deficit, 36,000 wisconsin Private sector jobs have been lost over the past 6 months, in addition to 7,000 state jobs that Walker himself eliminated. Walker is useing a clause with the current budget deficit to cut 53,000 people off badger care. This is the right direction? FOR WHO?

Jesus would be so proud that Walker kicked off 29,000 children from BadgerCare. WWJKOBC

Obama sez I has to pay taxes to go to heaven.

Walker: “We balanced [the budget] without raising taxes, without massive layoffs, and without budget tricks, all of which allowed us to put more than $1.2 billion of new state money into Medicaid programs like BadgerCare and Family Care.”

Reality: In reality, at the same time Walker has cut $140 million in taxes for corporations, he has raised taxes on low-income families who use the Earned Income Tax Credit ($28 million per year) and the Homestead Tax Credit ($7 million annually). In addition, Walker has cut public employees' pay by an average of $3,000 annually, and will make newly jobless people wait an extra week before receiving unemployment benefits to save an additional $48 million.

And that $1.2 billion of additional Medicaid money? The reality is that the state's Medicaid programs needed an additional $1.8 billion at the time to be fully funded. But Walker and Republican legislators deliberately underfunded the program so that they could ask the federal government for permission to kick people off of BadgerCare.

Walker's support for Family Care is paper-thin. He capped the program's enrollment, did an about-face and lifted the cap, and then took credit for lifting the cap. What the governor didn't tell the public is that the federal government ordered him to lift the cap so that disabled Wisconsinites wouldn't be shut out of this essential program.

@Robert - expand on your statement about the power plants. Why does this concern you? What about this is a good or bad way to go?

Forget the Koch brothers - let's talk about the Governor's article and the statements he makes.

As I understand the provision in the budget that Robert is referring to, it is in regards to the old, outdated, and out-of-compliance power plants, such as those found at many of the UW campuses, that Walker can sell to a private entity without competitive bids. Those power plants are almost more of a burden on the state than they are an asset, and to think that any private company would even want those facilities is wishful thinking at best.

Those claiming otherwise either didn't look closely enough at the statutory language contained within the bill or are buying into the Koch Bros conspiracy theories being advanced in propaganda and rhetoric by anti-Walker forces.

In other words, it's more of a red-herring issue than anything else.

Really... where... in between the thousands of lefty lobiest offices... I'm suprised they even allowed them in the neighborhood. You'd think some lefty group would have gone to a lefty judge and gotten some sort of injunction to stop that from happening...

Whatever...

@JRH -- Can someone explain the reasoning behind the no-bid provision, though? Assuming we want to sell off state property, why not sell it to the highest bidder?

@Randy1949 -

As with many government auctions and bidding situations, there is often a good deal of proverbial 'red tape' that one must clear before even becoming an eligible bidder, let alone being able to actually bid on something. Often, this level of bureaucracy has the effect of keeping many competent bidders from even thinking about engaging in the process - even if such bidders would have represented the best value to the people of the state.

Take the recent local example in Mount Pleasant about VHF radios. Was $3,118 per radio honestly the cheapest that they could get the radios for? I found way better equipment for way cheaper on eBay, but because of state and local purchasing and bidding requirements, $3,118 was the best they could do, even though it left the taxpayer getting completely hosed.

The same situation in the inverse could be said of the power plants. And do you honestly believe that Gov Walker would withstand the scrutiny of selling something to a crony buddy for dirt cheap if we were to find out that he could have done much better in the open, advertised, and competitive market? He'd lose a lot of support, including myself, if he were to do that. And with you guys watching his every move like a hawk, there's no conceivable way that would ever happen.

Robert, you are aware that all the electrical generating plants in this state are privately owned?

Absolutely! This is the same rhetoric we've been hearing all along from this idiot. Wisconsin is on the auction block and unless Walker and co. are removed from power, we won't have anything of our own left! Then again, we may not have to worry about the recall because the FBI is doing an excellent job of bringing out all the dirty little secrets that those of us who live in Milwaukee County tried to warn the rest of the State about in the first place.

Its stupid for the Wisconsin government to own powerplants. Governments inevitably lose money when they do this.

@Steve -

The budget discrepancies have been discussed here to death already. But since you espoused the talking point, I'll point you to the Politifact article that will answer your questions regarding this issue if you only take the time to read it:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/promises/walk-o-meter/promise/561/require-use-of-accepted-accounting-principles-to-b/

So, if you really insisted on Walker balancing the state's budget according to GAAP principles for the 2011-2013 biennial, would you have been happy with all the additional and immediate cuts he would have had to make to accomplish this, to the tune of about $3B?

After all, you appear to be upset about the cuts he did make, let alone be willing tolerate even more cuts with great resolve, wouldn't you say?

So, according to the way the state has traditionally assessed its budget, YES, the budget is balanced. But according to GAAP principles, NO, it's about $3B in the red, which was reported to the Feds by Walker in order to deny Obamacare money, which just so happens to be another express Walker campaign promise he delivered on!

I won't go into the public sector union issues with you, as rarely does that do any good here on Patch.

I have read it James. He ran on using the GAAP and did not. He did not follow through.

Obamacare? Really?

Affordable care act. I know we don't want our neighbors insured, everyone knows that the emergency room is the most cost effective way to deliver health care. This was a grand idea (as in grand old party) until put in place by Democrats.

I'm just saying he had a historic opportunity and could have delivered without the divide. The unions were willing, even police and fire would have gone along with paying into health insurance and pension.

@Steve -

The state level union leadership was telling Walker one thing, but then a bunch of locals were running out and introducing contracts to local boards that either didn't include the negotiated cuts OR even gave themselves raises behind everyone's back. It's known as a wildcat action. When Walker realized what was going on, and when the state level leadership refused to take responsibility for the wildcats, Walker decided that he had no other option but to 'drop the bomb,' as the whole point of the concessions was to alleviate the fiscal strain on localities so that property taxes would stay in check while enduring state level cuts necessary to balance the budget without raising taxes.

The unions failed themselves and their members by not playing fairly and by imposing anti-competitive health insurance plans into their contracts for decades, thus taking the tax payers to the cleaners for quite some time now. The savings recently experienced by numerous localities on health care premiums alone is proof positive of the 'corruption' that was going on, is it not?

So yeah, it was a 'historic' opportunity, and the unions blew it because they couldn't play fairly. Can you honestly blame the man for doing what he did?

The public sector unions divided the state, not Walker!

James

At least we can agree on one thing, the state is divided.

@Steve -

That we most definitely can!

@Lyle -

You don't think for a second that the publicity surrounding the union boycotts, recall fever, and the political instability it has caused to our national image has anything to with the private sector job losses we're currently suffering? Is it just coincidence that the job losses only started to appear during the senatorial recall elections last summer, as before that, we were actually close to leading the nation in private sector job creation, if you recall?

As to the power plant issue, see my above comment to Randy1949 concerning such.

Walker: “We heard many business owners say that they have jobs but that they cannot find enough skilled workers to fill them. This is a problem that must be solved.”
 

Reality: Virtually everyone agrees that it must be solved, but Walker's budget went in the opposite direction. Walker cut funding for the Wisconsin Technical College System (WCTS) by $72 million over the next two years.

@mainstreet -

I too have experienced an overriding pro-Walker sentiment from those out-of-state that are following the situation. One only needs to look at the online comments left to USA Today articles about the situation to realize this reality.

Walker for moving Wisconsin forward!

Reality: Walker has cut an unprecedented $800 million from K-12 education while limiting the amount of levy a school district can raise. Taken together, that's a $1.7 billion hit over the next two years.
 

As a result of public schools' tight budgets, an estimated 3,400 educators—about half of them teachers—lost their jobs across the state. Class sizes are increasing and specialty courses—especially classes that teach technical skills—are being dropped.

The cuts will get worse in the coming years, since school districts have used one-time federal stimulus funds to patch holes in their budgets.

And despite Walker's feel-good rhetoric, his cuts have hit the poorest kids the hardest.

“Districts with more than 60% of students eligible for free or reduced lunch had their general aid from the state reduced by $558 per student, while those with the most well-off families had state aid cut by only $294 per student,” concluded the Wisconsin Council on Children and Families' Wisconsin Budget Project."

When people find out I'm from Wisconsin, they say what is wrong with your state and how did anyone like Walker ever get elected.

@Michael... apparently you don't believe in the Constitution.

I dout that anyone posting on this board gives a rip about your religious beliefs and convictions. Part of the divisiveness in our country is caused by people like you who wear their religious beliefs on their sleeves. Your religious beliefs should be between you and your god. Frankly I for one, don't give a RA about you and Jesus. If you want a Theocracy just say so. If you need any examples you might want to check on any one of several Middle Eastern countries which are ruled by Sharia Law, which makes them theocracies.

@MrsPeel -

And thanks for being the first person on this board to turn it personal. Way to not read and respect the memo above about keeping the discussion civil and about the issues.

You get to wear the 'dunce' cap for the remainder of the day.

Oh well, at least we made it to 31 comments before the flame wars started, granted that half those comments were mine :-)

Maybe we'll do better next time!

@mrspeel - let's stick to issues Gov. Walker names in his op-ed and keep the personal out of it. Is there something in the piece about which you agree or disagree?

Walker: “Employers also told us that they need a 21st-century infrastructure system to drive economic development … We know that a strong transportation system helps manufacturers and farmers get product to and from market and it keeps good people on the job building that infrastructure.”
 

Reality: Walker might say he cares about a modern transportation system for moving products, but he certainly doesn't care about getting people from Point A to Point B. He rejected $810 million in federal funds for high-speed rail, which would have connected Wisconsin with the rest of the Midwest—and created jobs. Now officials are considering having the high-speed rail go through Iowa to Minneapolis, rather than through Wisconsin. The rejection of funds also jeopardized federal money for upgrading the Amtrak line between Milwaukee and Chicago, so now Wisconsinites will have to foot that bill. Walker and his Republican allies killed off the Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee (KRM) commuter rail line and regional transit authorities (RTAs) throughout the state. His budget also slashed public transit by 10%, and he has done nothing to help local bus systems create dedicated funding sources

And the Easter Bunny, and Santa, and the Great Pumpkin.

@Lyle -

You must remember that one of his core campaign promises is that he would not raise taxes, and so far, he's stood firm on this promise, regardless of how some might spin the EIC and homestead limitations he imposed.

Walker's staff stated to Politifact that he will eliminate the structural deficit in that the 2013-2015 biennial budget will be balanced according to GAAP principles. I too would like to see him make good on that promise while also keeping his promise against raising taxes. Maybe if he wasn't having to constantly campaign or waiting on the resolution of frivolous lawsuits so that his reforms could kick in faster, he could focus on doing just that. Given the boycotts, recall efforts, lawsuits, etc, and how they may have effected and slowed down our turn around under Walker, I'll even settle for a mere $2B reduction of the structural deficit by the end of his first term at this point, as after all, fair is fair, right?

@JRH...C'mon now, you don't expect me to buy into the fact that all the goals not achieved are because of the opposition to the Republicans. Currently they own the executive branch, the legislature and the supreme court. I would like to think that the opposition has been effective enough to have this kind of impact, but it just ain't so. All I'm saying is that there are most likely other variables at play. Follow my logic for a moment; Illinois has raised taxes out of sight, but there hasn't been a mass exodus to Wisconsin. Ohio has had mass demonstrations over their collective bargaining proposition. There economies are still growing jobs. Try another line of reasoning for why we are growing jobs. I would be interested in alternative theories.

@Lyle -

I know that you know that your theories are just as inconclusive and as preposterous as mine are. Not to mention that you're comparing apples and oranges. Did the protests in Ohio receive as much national attention as Wisconsin did? NO. Did those protests contain union boycotts, huge protests and demonstrations visited by celebrities, mass recall elections, a nearly month long exodus of an entire caucus of one branch of their state legislature, prolonged legal court challenges, massive and unprecedented recalls of elected officials, etc., all of which is still going on over a year later? NO. Not to mention that Ohio is traditionally a much 'bluer' state than Wisconsin ever has been.

If Illinois and Ohio are examples to follow in effectively running state governments in order to attract job creation, then why 1) are they still lagging behind extremely conservative run states such as Texas, Utah, North Dakota, etc.; 2) are their public debt credit ratings below that of Wisconsin's, with Illinois recently getting downgraded yet again making it the worst rated state in the union; 3) is Wisconsin's current path highly praised by business community leaders; and 4) Did Illinois just lose several mammoth employers to other states such as Texas?

In fact, as far as large-scale family sustaining employment is concerned, Wisconsin is currently outpacing IL. Where we're losing jobs is in the small business arena because of the current political divisiveness. Many are waiting out the storm to see what happens, which being a business man yourself, is admittedly the smart thing to do, isn't it?

@JRH...Ohio has always been a traditional stronghold of the Republican Party. North Dakota has not had a recession at all, they have had full employment all along. Therefore, North Dakota cannot be used as an example. Utah has always had a reputation of neither having deep recessions or high levels of growth and is a hotbed of entrepreneurial activity. Texas has not suffered like the rest of the country because of energy. We are not Illinois and with all the incentives we have created then why aren't they moving across the border in droves? Too many people are blaming our current status on political instability and it's nothing more than an excuse for failed assumptions of what creates employment. For someone who claims to be independent, you sure seem to be advocating the Republican party line.

@Lyle -

I'd hardly call Ohio a Republican Party stronghold - Cincinnati, Cleveland, Toledo, etc. Ohio's been looking more like Michigan than it has Utah lately, and you know this to be true.

http://www.270towin.com/states/Ohio

They appear to be just as purple as we are, but over the public sector union CB issue, they're clearly more 'blue.'

Utah has had the FIFTH highest level of growth in the entire country over the last two decades and the THIRD highest level of growth over the last decade Lyle - where have you been?

They started to move across the boarder in droves. Remember when we were leading the nation in job creation? Then the senatorial recall elections occurred and everything started reversing. How is a business to know if those incentives would still be on the table if you guys were successful in flipping the state senate and governor's mansion? Right now, it's a pretty much a 50/50 chance of both those things happening, isn't it? So, would you necessarily be rushing to invest capital in the state given such a scenario, or would you wait out the current round of recalls to see what happens or go to another more stable state if you couldn't wait. I know what I'd do if it were my money on the line, that's for sure!

Think about it.

And as far as my independent nature goes, I'm just being fair and considering all the factors involved.

As stated before, Wisconsin's business climate has been significantly elevated under Walker's policy according to top business analysts and leaders, correct? And our credit rating, which was facing a downgrade, has been reaffirmed as good and stable largely because of Walker's policies, haven't they?

Unlike other states, Wisconsin's economy is very diverse and it's only a matter of time before things really start to pick up for us. In fact, weren't a bunch of new jobs at places like Kohl's, just announced this past week? I think they were!

If you honestly want to give Walker and his policies a legitimate chance to work, then convince the recall crowd to drop all the current recalls, boycotts, lawsuits, etc. and give him that chance, just like the right gave to Doyle. That's simple enough to do, isn't it? But it wasn't two months into the Walker's term and protestors were storming the Capitol and demanding media attention with speeches from Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, etc.

The left targeted Wisconsin as the definitive battleground state and now we're forced to live with that stigma until that crowd either gets their way or gives up and respects the will of the majority of the state, no matter how small of a majority it happens to be.

Yes, raising taxes definitely fixed the structural deficit in Illinois. We should follow their lead!!!!

Though Illinois took steps in the last year to address its fiscal crisis, including a temporary hike in the corporate and personal income tax rates, the steps did not lift the ratings on its debt.

As the state prepares to take $800 million in general obligation bonds to market next week, two of the three major credit rating agencies kept their ratings the same and one downgraded its rating a notch, which means Illinois continues to lag most other states. The bond issue will help finance school, transportation and other capital projects.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-01-06/news/chi-moodys-cuts-illinois-debt-rating-20120106_1_investment-grade-major-credit-rating-agencies-moody

Not to knock following GAAB then politicians (both Republicans and Democrats) couldn't get away with the fraud they are perpetrating on us.

@Bren -

You must have missed the memo - we are trying to stay away from the Koch conspiracy theories and sticking to the issues. Thanks for ignoring the challenge posed by Heather A.

As to education and laying off public workers - Doyle cut far more than Walker did and you weren't screaming to recall him. Additionally, we're in a recession, people are hurting economically, which translates to a reduced revenue base. When revenues are down, you don't have as much to spend, so you must either cut or borrow money or raise taxes. The people voted to cut when they voted for Walker. That much can't be dismissed by the argument "he didn't expressly campaign on that," can it?

As to the power plants, see my other comments on this board.

And the rest of your post is nothing more than pure propaganda, heated rhetoric, and grandiose conspiracy theories.

Not to mention that you admittedly don't understand how the Walker business tax cuts work, despite repeatedly trashing them on Patch boards in the past.

Try again Bren, and leave the Koch stuff out next time. We're trying to have a decent discussion here!

Mr. Hoffa, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/03/koch-brothers-100-million-obama_n_1250828.html?ref=mostpopular

Lefties have missing brain cells that do not allow them to process that increased education spending does not lead to better education.

----More recently, total real expenditures shot up from $2,229 per pupil in 1965-66 to $4,206 per pupil 20 years later, an 89 percent hike. Keep in mind that this increase was after inflation, meaning that actual buying power available to schools almost doubled during that period. --

Nationwide, and in Wisconsin, over decades we have doubled spending on each child and our school performance has gone sideways or declined.

If liberals really cared about kids and education, they would focus on improving results. To them, education is just another jobs program so any nickle of cuts is a crime - especially when done by a Republican.

When you refer to the Koch brothers, are you referring to the Georgia Pacific Brothers who employ 3000 union employees in Wisconsin and in which economic success the Teacher's Pension is invested?

http://www.swib.state.wi.us/FY10Schedule.pdf
http://www.swib.state.wi.us/FY10Schedule.pdf

@Bren -

What does the Koch Bros, in coalition with 200-300 other private donors, pledging money in an effort to unseat President Obama in the 2012 election have to do with any of the issues that Walker laid out in the above article?

Maybe we should try taking this one step at a time.

Do you understand what it means to 'keep your discussion limited to the issues addressed by the original article?'

I can find nothing in the article you linked us to that either relates or pertains to any of the issues laid out in the article above by Governor Walker, can you?

Come on Bren, prove to us that instead of reiterating the latest and greatest Koch Bros conspiracy theories that you can actually take part in a rational and logical discussion about the issues addressed.

After all, I'd love to here Bren's opinions and positions on these issues as opposed to a reiteration of a bunch of canned talking points, biased propaganda, and empty/heated rhetoric.

@red....It doesn't matter how much money you dump into the system as long as it's the wrong system. One thing's for sure, if you cut too much out of the system, even though it's broken, what success they do have will disappear. It's just like a struggling business, if you cut off all captital, then they surely will fail.

You're the one who always puts ideology over intelligence. don't go complaining about liberals losing brain cells.

lyle said....One thing's for sure, if you cut too much out of the system, even though it's broken, what success they do have will disappear.

Lyle, you are obviously tired today so were unable to make sense in this post.

You admit yourself the money won't help, but then advocate funding a broken system. The union's want to divert attention from the fact that Walker's reforms address some systematic - not monetary - flaws in the system -e.g. that bad teachers are frozen in place by union protection. That unions don't care about school safety and discipline, only the next pay increase and free health care.

Walker's reforms were not that large an economic hit IF the school district took advantage of them instead of rushing to sign a contract and lock the failing union model into place a little bit longer.

While you were demonstrating against Walker, Tennessee passed similar reform JUST to address school quality. It is your ideology that weds you to the failing system instead of being open to non-budgetary change and the cessation of shoveling additional money into a system because you can't envision any other 'fix'.

Mr. Hoffa, I don't know any Koch brothers conspiracy theories, everything I've learned about them is readily available through legitimate news sources. Why do you keep dredging up comparisons with Doyle? We're in the 21st Century now, and Doyle had nothing to do with Scott Walker's behavior.

Concerning power plants, some may have equipment out of date, but we know of at least one Walker benefactor that could get them up to speed with ease (for the right price).

I believe I understand how the tax cuts work, thanks for that. I think we are trying to have a decent discussion, but I'm not sure when you were appointed co-moderator. Your tone certainly doesn't advance the discourse.

Red, "Lefties have missing brain cells?" "Lyle, you are obviously tired today so were unable to make sense in this post?" I'm surprised Mr. Hoffa hasn't berated you for your tasteless comments.

Concerning Georgia Pacific, I'm glad they employ people. On the slightly less sunny side, they also have a history of not sharing financial data (beyond what is absolutely required), and also received a tax cut from Doyle to upgrade technology, and then laid off workers because of technology upgrades. That's before being purchased by Koch Industries in 2009. Working now on trying to find out how much in tax breaks GP/Koch has received from Scott Walker (rumour has it they are substantial) and their fiscal furtiveness continues (which makes digging hard but I'm nothing if not persistent).

Red, not sure what per-student costs in the '60s and '80s has to do with the 21st Century, but I do know that Wisconsin's public schools face new and more expensive challenges, including ESL programs, increased disability services, academic achievement gap (which becomes evident in K4/K5), and other socio-economic issues.

Sorry, I can't be in all places at once you know - I'm only human after all :-)

@red - Bren is correct. We're trying to stay away from the name-calling and personal remarks on this board, in case you didn't get the memo. So please keep the incendiary and tasteless remarks out of your future comments.

Thanks!

@Bren -

I only use Doyle as a basis for comparison. And even Politifact confirmed that Doyle's cuts to education were far deeper than Walker's. So again, why weren't you so upset at Doyle that you were raving to recall him, as after all, you're an independent, correct? I thought your standards and actions would be consistently applied across partisan lines, no?

Sorry if my 'tone' upset you, as I certainly didn't mean to. I apologize.

You know how playful we get with each other Bren, I was just trying to have some fun with you as you're always quick to come up with some pretty good rebuttals.

Take care and be well!

BTW - You're one of my favorites on Patch too :-) After all, if that wasn't that case, do you think I'd bother responding to almost every single one of your postings? Keep up the good fight my friend, even if we're on opposing sides.

Thanks Heather!

I knew we could do it if we tried!

@Hoffa... I did not say anything personal about Michael. I commented on what he said not on him directly.

@Michael... I do not want any prayers from you on my part, as I stated your religion is between you and your Jesus. I don't want you to involve me in that relationship.

@MrsPeel -

"@Michael... apparently YOU don't believe in the Constitution.

I dout that anyone posting on this board gives a rip about YOUR religious beliefs and convictions. Part of the divisiveness in our country is caused by people like YOU who wear their religious beliefs on their sleeves. Your religious beliefs should be between YOU and YOUR god. Frankly I for one, don't give a RA about YOU and Jesus. If you want a Theocracy just say so." (Emphasis added.)

Hmmm... for it not being personal, there's an awful lot of 'you's' and your's' contained in the above quoted comment, aren't there? There's also numerous uses of 'colorful metaphors,' ex: "gives a rip," "caused by people like you," and "RA," which I presume means 'rat's a$$.' Not to mention that the context of the entire comment carries a tone indicative of how the usual flame wars are started here on Patch, wouldn't you agree?

Wow, if that's not a personal comment, then you certainly fooled me! Sorry for misinterpreting your intent.

@MrsPeel -

I'll give you some credit here, as it's better, but still incites heated responses. Perhaps if you were more general or focussed on why wearing "their religious beliefs on their sleeves," is contrary to the separation of church and state provisions of the Constitution.

Also, I can't figure out what any of this has to do with what Walker discussed in the original article, can you? Part of the challenge was staying on topic, remember :-)

So when President Obama goes to the National Prayer breakfast to sell his domestic version of beggar thy neighbor by taxing the rich just a little more and says "But for me as a Christian, it also coincides with Jesus’s teaching that for unto whom much is given, much shall be required." We're on the slippery slope to a first century theocracy?

This is off topic, so i apologize up front. I can't let stand the common misconception about religion and the constitution. There is NOTHING in the constitution about separation of church and state; that came from papers Thomas Jefferson published. What is in the constitution is that there shall not be a religion established by the state. It may be a bit subtle for some, but the distinction is huge.

Now on topic... why isn't small business isn't flocking to Wisconsin? Let’s use some common sense on this. If you were to open or expand your small business and could move to WI from elsewhere, why would you when the debate if Walker and his policies are going to survive is still raging? It would not be worth the risk. Once this crap is behind us, and Walker survives I think we will see the growth that is being discussed

@MrsPeel -

Really, thanks for the laugh :-)

Mrs. Peel...I agree with you completely. Who appointed Hoffa to be the framer of discussions here? I suppose he figures that if he monopolizes the board enough, it will sound like WTMJ Conservative radio, and no one with a dissenting point of view will call in. If a Liberal does call in and make a point that makes the Republican side look bad, they hit a button and yank the caller off the air. Here, Hoffa pooh-poohs the point of view, throws out a happy face emoticon and moves on. I'll give him credit for the fact that he never seems to get tired of not looking at the unintended consequences of his pal Walker's programs, and that he never seems to get bored with hearing himself say the same things over and over, even though new facts keep coming to light regarding the low quality of people Walker surrounds himself with, and that the schools are deteriorating. The bell curve doesn't just go away because it's not politically correct to discuss it. Hoffa, please offer solutions to problems that are doable by people with little education, and even less money, to sustain themselves with. They're not going to go away. They are citizens too. "Pulling up bootstraps" isn't going to work.

@Dave Koven -

You must not have read the article by Gov Walker before you started posting your comments on this board, nor the editor's request to keep things on-topic and civil with this discussion, did you? Be honest now!

"Hoffa, please offer solutions to problems that are doable by people with little education, and even less money, to sustain themselves with. They're not going to go away. They are citizens too."

I would suggest that they start by visiting the Wisconsin Jobs website, found at:

https://jobcenterofwisconsin.com/

There's over 33,500 jobs currently posted, many of which are for low-level un-skilled labor that don't require any special training or education.

Even at minimum wage, working two jobs for 65 hours a week or more would put one well over the poverty level, wouldn't it? By my calculations, doing that would equal approximately $24,500/yr. If you live within your means, spend responsibly, and budget appropriately, soon you'll be able to start saving up some money! You'll also get raises, be promoted, or even find a better job that pays even better! Then you can start working less and enjoying your free time more. You may even decide that you want to go to school and become better educated.

I know that this might be a strange new concept for many people, but trust me, it really does work. I'm living proof that it does - I started out making $4.25/hr. and working 80 hours a week.

@Thurston Howell III -

Can you provide a link proving that what you have asserted actually is the official Republican Party motto, as I'm having trouble finding a source for your information.

In case you didn't get the memo, we're trying to stay on topic and away from taking things personal on this thread, in case you didn't see that.

So, why exactly do you think Walker is taking the state 'backwards?'

Of course our personal beliefs influence our politics. I just think it's a little presumptuous to claim that Jesus is on your side, the way a previous poster did. I really think Jesus would prefer to stay out of Wisconsin politics.

@Sheila... you have absolutely no idea where my religious beliefs stand. My point is that religous beliefs are a personal affair. When I see them being introduced publicly into the political realm as I did here I am going to comment on them.

To stay on topic also means to leave religion and relgious beliefs out of the discussion. If someone choose to "pray for someone", that's just fine, just keep it to ones self.

Sheila... of course anyone that holds true convictions of their faith are influnced by those convictions and influnce what they give a RA about.

I also think anyone that presumes what Jesus would say about Wisconsin politics or national politics presumes too much. He had a way of suprising his contemporaries and I strongly suspect we would all be suprised by his opinion of the words that are being "put in his mouth" now.

So unless I am mistaken, I belive this is one time I agree with Randy1949. I would like to keep the overt religous comments out of political discussions like this.

I agree that one's theological positions can absolutely influence both their fiscal and social political views, but I don't see anywhere in the article by Governor Walker where it's apparent that his theological positions have in fact influenced his political positions on the issues he specifically addresses.

Therefor, any discussion of such would merely comprise of pure speculation, conjecture, and unsupported inferences, no matter how reasonable they may be.

Because of this, I don't see how one's theological positions are a pertinent topic of discussion if we're tying to keep to discussing the issues contained within the article.

Therefor, although I agree with everyone's asserted positions in such regard in this threat, I'm ultimately agreeing with Randy1949 and Rick in that it's not an appropriate topic of discussion for this board.

Cheers!

Thanks Sheila, I appreciate that!

Contrary to popular belief held by some around here, no one pays me for opining with my two-cents :-)

@Thurston -

I can't find anything in the link you've provided indicating that the official Republican Party motto is in fact "The Republican Party, Your bridge to the 11th Century," as you've previously asserted.

I also noticed that several others commenting on that page have already pointed out the contradictions and hypocrisies contained within the write-up that you are endorsing, so I won't bother wasting my time doing the same, except to note that the piece is very biased and contains several factual inaccuracies when cross referenced with Politifact and primary sources of information.

@$$andSense -

Agreed that it's not an appropriate topic of discussion for this board.

@MrsPeel -

I agree with you about leaving religion out of this discussion, but we're also trying to stay away from the Koch Bros, FYI.

Also, I don't see where Walker raised the issue of Voter ID in the above article, do you?

Yes

Whether you like it or not, he IS the governor. So unless the recall effort is successful (which I doubt and do not support), you will be reading a lot more about Scott Walker in the coming years. Sorry.

Well, The Patch certainly isn't The ShepherdExpress, is it. I find the Patch to be more diverse with both sides reported, not like the SE which tends to be very left in its editorial content. Plus the Patch is more about the local news and stuff which makes it tailor made for each locale.

@jt , Most of the liberals have tired of the same old arguments of the right. @ Heather, IMHO a person would have had to have a lobotomy to dismiss the Koch brothers and Alec when referring to Scott Walker. Sorry! Things are what they are.

Patch is committed to providing balanced coverage and that means we will post op-eds from all of our elected officials no matter what side of the aisle they call home.

As for keeping Koch/ALEC out of it, unless you can point to a direct connection with a point made in the Governor's piece then, yes, leave them out of this discussion.

jt... funny thing about perspective. I feel patch (waukesha as well as any other community that I have read) tends to lean left and in some cases is overtly liberal. While Walker is Gov. and is new worthy, it is a good thing to write and comment on him and his policies. BTW... there are a lot of left side of the isle comments on what Walker dose or doesnt do here.

Its one of the few places where lefties are confronted with the reality that more than 50 percent of the population does not agree with them.

Conservatives outnumber lefties two to one.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71385.html

I would agree JT.

Heather, concerning "leave them [Koch brothers] out of this discussion," this is difficult because Scott Walker would not be Governor today without their patronage. They are the "800 lb. gorillas." There is no way to disassociate the Koch brothers from any of their puppet governors as their agenda is the same in every state.

@Bren -

The Koch Bros gave Walker's campaign all of $45k. Big labor gave Barrett's campaign far more money, in case your 'facts' didn't disclose that information to you.

Walker won because after 8 years of failure from Doyle and the Democratic regime that was slowly bankrupting our state, the electorate wanted change.

Can't you just comment on the issues addressed without making reference to the Koch Bros? Why exactly do you feel this to be such a difficult undertaking? I honestly don't understand. After all, look at all the other people on this board that were able to successfully do so and actually have a pretty good discussion!

It can be done Bren, and I have faith that you'll be able to do it to. All in due time my friend.

Koch vs Kennedy

John F. Kennedy wouldn't have been president and all the Kennedy clan wouldn't be in politics and wealthy if it hadn't been for Joe Kennedy Sr. who's actions caused the stock market crash.

"In 1919, he joined the prominent stock brokerage firm of Hayden, Stone & Co. where he became an expert in dealing in the unregulated stock market of the day, engaging in tactics that were later labeled insider trading and market manipulation. (He happened to be on the corner of Wall and Broad Streets at the moment of the Wall Street bombing on September 16, 1920, and was thrown to the ground by the force of the blast.) In 1923 he left Hayden, and set up his own investment company, becoming a multi-millionaire during the bull market of the 1920s, and even more wealthy as a result of taking "short" positions in 1929."

"Kennedy later claimed he knew the rampant stock speculation of the late 1920s would lead to a crash. It is said that he knew it was time to get out of the market when he received stock tips from a shoe-shine boy. Kennedy survived the crash "because he possessed a passion for facts, a complete lack of sentiment and a marvelous sense of timing". During the Great Depression Kennedy vastly increased his financial fortune by investing most of it in real estate. In 1929, Kennedy's fortune was estimated to be $4 million (equivalent to $51.3 million today. By 1935, his wealth had increased to $180 million (equivalent to $2.88 billion today."

Wait a minute here. Another Walker supporter posted that he isn't lowering taxes, just cutting spending. Which is it?

Hey jim- The LT governor lead the way in what the GOP called "massive voter fraud" and after two years found that six people did vote who didn't. Four were felons who didn't know- and two were an elderly couple who forgot. Don't worry they are going after grandpa and grandma. Spending 11million for the voter suppression that this will fix but will cut 25% of eligible black and low income-and seniors out of voting is just one more way the GOP is closer to Germany- 1932 than anyplace else on the planet right now.

@$$andSense -- Taxes are cut, just not for the individual residents of the state. They're lowered for businesses who create jobs. Of course our disposable income is down, so we can't buy very much, but I'm sure there are people who are eager to work, no matter what the wages and benefits (or lack thereof) being offered.

@Jim K. -- "The voter ID bill will stop the endless cheating and bring fairness in elections again."

That's the one thing I used to hate about election day -- having to fight my way through crowds of shuffling dead folks who were muttering, "Brains . . . brains . . ." and "Vote Democrat . . ." [/sarcasm

Massive fraud on the petitions.

Milwaukee had hundred of thousand more ballots than voters prepared for its cheating fest in 2004

----Another Walker supporter posted that he isn't lowering taxes, just cutting spending. Which is it?

Is this supposed to be cutting rhetoric? Lame

Hey guys, can anyone show me where Walker raised the issue of Voter ID in the above article? Remember, we're trying to stay on topic here in addition to being civil.

Thanks!

@JRH -- Doesn't Voter ID fall under the subject of the direction Wisconsin is taking? It is one of the Walker initiatives I don't care for and as such would be open to discussion. As long as we aren't calling one another big poopie-heads we are obeying the rule about not getting 'personal'.

@Randy1949 -

In a very broad, general, and open interpretation sense, I'll let you have this one without anymore insights from me
:-)

But hasn't that topic been beaten to death already on other Patch boards? I definitely already know where you stand on the issue just as I'm sure you know where I stand on the issue.

I like the theory behind it and believe it's necessary to keep our elections fair and honest, although I'm not 100% crazy about it's implementation, as I think it could be done better by also including Court Houses that process passports, in addition to the DMV. Also a 'birth certificate' should not be absolutely required to prove citizenship and residency if you can do so using other documentation.

I honestly don't know what more can be said about it, do you?

Those guys who stole money from the Vets and watched child pornography? With those activities I'd have sworn they were Democrats.

Wisconsin school district to hire additional teachers, reduce class sizes after Governor Walker's collective bargaining changes

http://thegrimcreeper.newsvine.com/_news/2011/06/30/6985100-wisconsin-school-district-to-hire-additional-teachers-reduce-class-sizes-after-governor-walkers-collective-bargaining-changes

Maybe it depends on how highly overstaffed the districts were before.

@KTinWi
So Oshkosh had to do staff reductions and you pin that on Walker and the republicans. They signed a contract before act 10 went into effect see this article or goggle "Oshkosh Teachers Contract"

http://fairlyconservative.com/2011/03/22/oshkosh-educators-abandon-90-sick-days-a-year-in-new-contract/

This article touts how Walker's reforms allowed the Oshkosh to take back the 90 sick days a year provision in the teachers contract. But because the contract was signed before Act 10 was in effect, the school district was not able to take advantage of the pention or medical changes. I would not be shocked to find out they agreed to WEAC health insurance at the older rates too.

Thanks Rick. That's an important factor - whether a school district moved to use Walker's reforms or not. Somehow the lefties blame him for anything bad even when it was their preference to lock in teacher's out of control benefits.

@ Rick and Red -- The contract signed by the district INCLUDED the 12% health insurance and 50% WRS contributions. In addition, the contract ends June 30, 2012. They are cutting 17% more teaching staff WITH the "reforms" already in place. And, Red, where's your proof about how they were overstaffed. At 26 kids per class, seems unlikely, yes? Here's a link to the actual contract, if you'd care to actually check it out.

I reiterate, this will be happening in school districts all across the state in 2012-13.

http://www.oshkosh.k12.wi.us/site_uploads/uploads/OEA/ACTUAL_FINAL_Master_Agreement_for_2009-2012_090111.pdf

Without a cite this is just the ranting of a homeless guy on Wisconsin avenue.

Ok, for those of us with sense.

There are various ways to report accounting. Under GAAB Wisconsin continues to have a debt. Just like all the other states.

Under the reporting typical of our politicians both Republican and Democrat, we reduced our 3.6 billion dollar deficit and have a surplus.

I don't like our politicians cheating us blind using this lousy accounting, but Walker is just adhering to the same process used by all governors past.

Red, Scott Walker claimed Wisconsin's budget would be balanced under GAAB. That's why people are pointing out the disconnect. Should we not hold Scott Walker accountable based on his own campaign promises?

@Bren -

Would you have been happy if he had cut another $3B from the budget or would you now be complaining about it, like you complain about the cuts he already did make?

I've linked you to the article time and again where it states that Walker is transitioning over to a balanced GAAP budget, and that the 2013-2015 biennial will be balanced according to GAAP standards. He thought that this would be a better approach as opposed to making huge cuts all at once. It also gives the economy some time to recover which would have the effect of broadening the tax base, thus translating into increased revenues, which would equal less necessary future cutting required.

Honestly, I thought you'd be applauding these efforts as opposed to chastising them.

The fact that you continue to ignore the factual reality of this situation shows me that you are definitely not the open minded independent that you claim to be, but a rather a hardened and confirmed supporter of the Democratic opposition against Walker.

Try again.

Mr. Hoffa, I have advocated taking a measured multi-year approach to addressing the deficit numerous times. It's wonderful that Scott Walker claims to balance the budget using GAAB for 2013-2015. I have no doubt that if he survives the recall he'll have a smooth excuse if that goal isn't reached, just as he has one for not meeting his absurd 250,000 new jobs by 2013 goal (now 2015).

I believe it's unethical to make campaign promises that cannot logically be met, and am bewildered by all the people who actually thought Scott Walker could provide 250,000 new jobs just for Wisconsin when the entire globe is in the throes of a recession.

I'm obviously fairly clear on the "facts" of the matter, unpleasant as they may be. Give the "you're not an independent" theme a rest. It's boring.

@Bren -

I'm also opposed to public officials making unrealistic campaign promises.

However, if you're going to start judging Walker on that standard, then why don't I see you holding Obama accountable to that same standard over on the Obama and federal issue boards?

I'll drop the whole 'independent' thing if 1) you completely do as well; or 2) you start attacking Soros, Democratic lawmakers, and their policies with the same consistency and vitriol that you do the Koch Bros, Republican lawmakers, and their policies.

So, do we have a deal Bren?

@Jerry -

This issue about the budget reporting discrepancies was definitively discussed in the comments above.

Everything else you've posted here has nothing to do with the topic on hand

In case you didn't see the memo above, we were trying to stay on topic with this board. We'd appreciate your cooperation on this matter, so please limit your diatribes on this board to discussing the issues that Walker addressed in the original article above.

Thanks,
-- James R.

Milwaukee teachers ratified a contract before Act 10 was enforced. That is why you lost the 10 teachers, also the union had a vote (not very fair from what I read) to vollentarily take the changes for pension and healh care contributions and turned it down. MPS had no chioce at that point other than to lay off teachers. Blame your school board and teachers (and their union) for the cuts.

The point about exempting districts that had contracts would not have worked. You dont reward bad behivor in your children if you want good behavior. Signing contracts to "get in under the wire" is bad behavior in my book.

You did not benefit from Walker's reforms because your school board decided not to take advantage of them. You even admit this.

Someday, when MPS is allowed to get rid of awful teachers, and with the choice programs our children's educational metrics improve you will benefit from Walker's 'disgusting' reforms.

@Stephanie Purvis -

Interesting position, I'd love to hear more.

"... if he really cared about education he should have made adjustments for the districts who already had contracts in place."

What kind of adjustments do you propose he had made instead of offering the universal solution that he implemented?

"I'd rather pay my fair share of taxes."

Does this mean that you don't believe that you're paying enough in taxes already? Have you ever donated money to either the local or state treasuries via the 'pay more' option on your tax forms?

Contract - a binding agreement, a legal obligation.

You are all missing the point. The contract was settled BEFORE Walker was even elected, and in effect until 2013. The contract was not pushed through as a result of Act 10 as Act 10 wasn't even an issue. The governor could have made provisions for the districts that already had legally binding contracts in place until they expired. He didn't, and as a result many teachers were laid off resulting in the loss of gym, art, music, library and the increase of class sizes.

Hoffa- personally contributing to a tax fund is a ridiculous argument. If I personally contributed 10k to my school I still coulnd't bring back one teacher, even at the rate you want to pay. It's about what we value as a community. You happen to value saving $500 bucks, while I value the education and experiences of our kids - all of them.

@Stephanie Purvis -

"Hoffa- personally contributing to a tax fund is a ridiculous argument."

Why? If half the state feels as you do, and each of those taxpayers gave an extra $10k, as you suggested you believe would be more 'fair,' that would amount to a lot of additional and unexpected revenue pouring into state and local treasuries, would it not? And wouldn't that also send a message to the rest of us?

If you're going to talk the talk, then you should be prepared to walk the walk. But when push comes to shove to claim that asking if you ever walked the walk is "a ridiculous argument," is disingenuous at best and highly indicative of a 'do as I say but not as I do' kind of mentality, isn't it?

I'm just trying to be fair here. After all, a person earning $60k/yr with a fairly nice house is already paying close to 50% of their gross income in taxes and fees to the government between federal, state, property, sales, excise, etc. Isn't that enough already? I most certainly feel that it is actually too much. Especially when nearly 50% aren't paying any state or federal income tax at all and some of the money is being flushed down the toilet on crony pet projects such as Solyndra.

So, until government's implement an 'everyone plays so everyone pays' taxation policy and stops wasting our tax dollars on frivolous expenditures and starts acting like responsible stewards of the taxpayer's dollars, I don't think that anyone currently paying taxes should pay a penny more.

@Hoffa - As much as you like the idea it has no grounding in reality. I've paid for many wars I don't agree with, along with many corporate handouts, and would like the people who support these policies to donate money to pay for these. After all, wouldn't it show the rest of us that war and corporate welfare are good? But no, it would be a ridiculous tax policy.

@Randy1949 -

When did Walker "blame teachers and setting everyone at one another's throats?"

For the most part, Walker has done nothing but praise teachers and the role that they have in our society, correct? Except for a few contextual discrepancies, which are highly arguable on the grounds of unions vs individual teachers, even Politifact has confirmed this.

So exactly who turned this into a 'war,' and over what exactly?

@JRH --True, he's praised teachers while implying that unions and their demands are behind the state's budget crisis. It was others who took that implication and ran with it.

I agree with one thing -- the school tax levy has been bleeding me dry for years. We're paying more and more for less and less in the way of literacy. Something has to be done, but the answer isn't more testing, and it certainly isn't making teachers' lives harder.

@Randy1949 -

I agree with you 100%.

What do you think of Walker's new reform specifically addressing literacy in public schools, as announced at his 'State of the State' address?

Do you think it's a good approach? Or maybe just a decent place to start but needs more work?

@JRH --As I have said before, one does not improve literacy through testing, nor can one quantify good teaching that way. I agree with Jonathan Kozol that reliance on testing can often make matters worse.

I have just read that portion of Gov. Walker's State of the State address in which he talks about Read to Lead. It's too short on detail for me to make a judgement. More screeners will cost money. I would think that most teachers know when a child isn't able to read at grade level. But then how do you fix that? And why can't they read in the first place? It could be teaching methods, but it could also be something in home environment and early childhood background.

@Randy1949 -

I'm with you on standardized testing being near worthless.

We need to be more 'effective performance' and 'end results' based, as opposed to being 'conformed results' based.

While I think the program is a good stepping stone, I agree that it's a little short on detail and am curious as to whether it will work in reality. If successful, then I don't mind spending the money, as it would be a good investment. But change does need to part of the solution, as continuing to just throw more money at the 'old' or 'established' way of doing things just isn't producing the results we deserve.

If you do away with standardized testing how do you gauge a person's competency in an occupation? There are many occupations that require a state test to be licensed for their occupation. If you don't test the potential licensee, how do you judge their knowledge and skill?

@Mau -- No one is saying that we'll do away with standardized testing altogether. However, using test results to determine the quality of a teacher or a school is misleading, and Kozol makes a very good case in The Shame of the Nation how excessive use of the testing compounds the problem by penalizing teachers and schools who take on the worst of the underperforming students. Teachers lose their jobs, schools are closed, and the students are passed on to previously well-performing schools that suddenly see their average test scores declining.

Schools end up teaching to the test and very little else. And they manage to kill what little love of learning is left in their students.

Something isn't working, and we have to figure out what that might be.

At what point did we get to only relying on test scores to judge a student's performance. In my12 years of school, 4 in the public school system, I was passed onto the next grade depending on test scores, class performance, skills, etc. I didn't always do well testing but I always averaged out and passed. I was by no means a genius and there were many classes I detested and just didn't do well in. But I made up for it in other classes. If there was a class I really hated and didn't do well, the teacher would hand out extra work or retest, to make up for the poor test score. Maybe instead of always experimenting with new ideas we should be looking back at old ideas that worked. They can always be upgraded and applied to today's conditions.

Mau,
If you want to fix education and go back to what worked, start with the number one item that can affect a students success...proper parenting. Just an idea.

"For example, SEDL found that students with involved parents, no matter their income or background, are more likely to:

Earn higher grades and test scores, and enroll in higher-level programs
Be promoted, pass their classes and earn credits
Attend school regularly
Have better social skills, show improved behavior and adapt well to school
Graduate and go on to post-secondary education"
http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Public-education/Parent-Involvement/Parent-Involvement.html

@Say What?

Agreed that proper parenting is the core problem - no doubt about it.

The problem with this though is what should government's role be in parenting and how would you go about implementing that role?

I don't see bad parenting as a being a problem that government can fix, or should even try to fix.

Well, then we can agree on that. The problem then is that those wishing to "hold teachers accountable" are wishing to do so on something that we can't legislate, as parenting plays such a large role in a child's education and development. Teachers haven't been getting worse, and in fact, I would wager to say that the people I work with today are far better than some I was educated by (although we did have some serious superstars in my highschool). NCLB and child achievement standards overlook critical inputs to the measurable outcomes.

@Say What? -

That's where I'm going to disagree with you. Jamie Escalante and Joe Louis Clark both had the worst of the worst kids to work with and still managed to effectively teach them, correct?

So, yes, it is possible to teach even kids that have had bad parenting or no parenting, and we can and should hold ineffective teachers accountable for their failures.

It starts with being pro-active and working on adjusting attitudes above all else, as both Escalante's and Clark's examples have shown us.

It's just a fact of the matter that very few teachers are willing to implement these styles that have proven to work because it admittedly takes a lot of work and dedication. And we've had these two examples, as well as others, for decades now, so there's no excuse.

Both Clark and Escalante reported that the teacher's unions stood strongly against their reforms, even though they were effective and worked. Walker taking away the power of the teacher's unions is therefor a step in the right direction. Now, much the work will be up to individual teachers. And if they don't want to do the work necessary, then why did they bother getting into the profession in the first place?

Teacher's know what they have to do to be more effective as the examples are with us. It's just a matter of them doing it! And those that don't want to perform should be replaced with those that are willing to. After all, public education is about the kids!

@Say What?, agreed. Thing is parents up to about the 1960's weren't engaged with their kids in school. They were too busy having babies, feeding their families, etc. Thing is the outcome was still way far and above what it is today. I think a lot has to do with the moral structure of the family and society. Though I would hate to zone in on that when you look at all the orphan children of the early 1900's and Great Depression, and see what huge successes they went on to be. And some were living under some very sad conditions.

@Dave Koven... perhaps you might want to add "pomposity" to the cause of the inebriation?

You can add all the name calling you want, he apparently is winning the argument singlehandedly.

Thanks for adding something of value to the discussion Dave!

I think you gave us the most substantive, thoughtful, and on-topic comment thus far. You must feel proud of yourself.

Obviously, you missed the memo - we're trying not to take things personal on this board. Apparently, that's a difficult concept for you to understand, but I have faith that if you ponder the concept long enough, you just may be able to comprehend what that means and will actually be able to comply with the request made by the editor.

Don't give up Dave, I know you can do it - I have the utmost of faith in you!

@MrsPeel -

The editor agreed with me that you were taking things off topic and making them personal, against her original request. So how exactly do you justify calling me 'pompous?'

Perhaps it's because you don't know what it means to "stay on topic" and "not take things personal," as that's the only logical conclusion that I can honestly come to. Before commenting further, I suggest you 'google' these two concepts and come back when you have a firm understanding of what they mean.

Just like Dave's situation, I also know that you can do it if you work hard enough to achieve - I have the utmost of faith in you!

Thanks!

Which one is this?

@Joanne Brown -

First off, I'd like to commend you on your insightful, on-topic, and non-personal comment! Very nice!

You are correct - not all the power plants are in the condition that I described when generalizing them in my original comment, however, a vast majority are. The fact that it is costing $135M to update one at the UW-Madison campus is proof of my original assertion about the majority of the plants though, as why else would it require such an extensive overhaul if it was already in tip-top shape to begin with?

I agree that before any power plants are sold to private interests, an unbiased and independent cost-benefit analysis be appropriately conducted and made publicly available.

Controlling costs and maximizing efficiency and effectiveness out of every dollar spent should be the primary goal at any public institution, including the UW system. Whether that's best accomplished via public or private stewardship remains to be conclusively seen, but I think it important to consider all viable options, including private control and ownership, don't you? After all, if the private sector could provide power to the schools for cheaper than what it's costing them to make themselves on the taxpayer's dime, and turn a profit, then wouldn't that be serving everyone's best interest?

As I stated before, if Walker does a crony behind closed doors deal that is not in the state's / people's best interest, then he will lose my support, no questions or doubts about it, just as I'm sure many others supporters would also jump ship. So honestly, I don't see him doing something like this, as it would not only be against our interests, but also his own future in politics, correct? Not to mention that I'm sure it would end up in litigation and would probably be undone in the court system.

So why can't we give the guy the chance to prove himself, as he deserves? After all, we gave Doyle 8 years, free from shenanigans, despite him not always acting in our best interests, right?

If Joanne is referring to the Charter Street plant this is the one that Gov Walker axed the bio-mass boiler (at a cost of $250 million) and instead installing a natural gas boiler at a savings of $100 million for the state. Another savings factor is that the school is not a utility and does not need approval by the PSC like public utilities do. Prime example is the staggering cost of the new plant at Oak Creek that needed to jump through the hoops of the PSC, Sierra Club and Johnson law suits.

@Thurston Howell III -

The primary MISSION of the UW System is to educate students, absolutely. And yes, I do believe that MISSION should accomplished while adhering to the primary goal of maximizing efficiency and effectiveness out of every dollar spent - especially if it's money coming from taxpayers. I'd also expect the same from my tuition payments, wouldn't you? Please note that I emphasized both efficiency and EFFECTIVENESS, as being equally important.

Who ever said that the expansion of the state government was happening within the UW-System? I certainly didn't, so I'm having a problem following your argument here, as what's the relevance to the issues discussed by Walker's article?

@Lyle -- I don't know what happened since I managed to learn the 3-R's plus a share of science, geography, and civics during my public school years, with a little time left over for art and music. Part of it was new, innovative ways of teaching the 3 Rs -- word recognition versus phonics, 'new' math, and focus on creative self-esteem versus proper English use. Now the kids can't do anything well.

Perhaps the European system works better than ours, but where is there room for childhood in the year-round institutional schooling that starts at age three? Mental enrichment can, and does, come from informal play and random experience of the sort we used to get during summer vacation.

@Randy1949, I agree. Thing is even though they can't do anything well, they have been socialized to believe they do everything well, are never wrong and it's never their fault. And as long as they feel good about themselves that is all that counts.

@Randy1949...I couldn't agree more that children need "free play" to develop. However, look at all the children we currently have in daycare settings that are nothing more than watching Disney on TV for a major part of the day. In the European system, a child learns socialization in the earliest years. The programs are geared very much to each child's development capabilities. Even stay at home parents take their children to school and the day initially only consists of 3 to 4 hours. If the primary care parent is working, then traditional daycare is provided at no additional expense.

Being a few years older than you, I started out in a traditional curriculum but as new learning theories came along we were the ones who were the first generation to get it. I started out learning phonetics and was switched in the second grade to sight and recognition reasoning. I was a sophomore in high school when the school I was in switched from traditional math over to the new Yale math program. Also, it was mandatory for all boys to take classes in industrial arts and girls home making. In high school we could take business classes that taught typing, principles of accounting, shorthand, etc. We still could take art and music, but for us that were in the college track were given fewer elective choices. All college track had to take Latin, algebra, advanced algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, biology, chemistry, and physics. We were tracked over 50 years ago.

@ Lyle
The devil is in the details and even you have to admit the unions like the status quo which was more about union dues than educating kids. It doesnt mean we dont have some good teachers , but it is not a merit based system based on results. Bill Gates upset the unions when his study found ithat learning was much more about the abilities of a teacher than the size of the class. He took heat for it as the union establishment doesnt want change. In New york they have that teacher deemed unsafe to teach but they cant fire him ....so he collects his pay and benefits and wont retire as . I am sure you seen the story. People are abandoning the public schools to be sure . I definitely agree with you the system is broken , but it is also backed by the union who likes the way it is . I think Walker actually helps the posibility for positive changes as it opens the door to alternatives. Someone needs a well thought out plan and it likely would have support for pilot programs if a plan is presented properly . But your biggest fight on improvements would come from the Union. Waiting for Superman illustrates some of the issues of the entriched failed system .

@skinnyDUDE...It is not the unions, teachers, administrators alone. It is the American institution of education. "We've always done it this way and there isn't any need to change. If it was good enough for me it's good enough for you. All we have to do is to concentrate on the three r's. If you work hard enough then you too can go to college" Any of this sound familiar? .

Lyle, I'm not too familiar with the German education system but having encountered young children in Europe I know that they begin teaching English very early. This is brilliant because studies show the mind is most receptive to learning up to age 9 and the earlier the better. Hopefully the German system also includes music instruction as this subject has proven to improve IQ and cognitive thinking. Our system starts too late on some subjects and too soon on others, and now has virtually eliminated some subjects vital for a well-rounded education (in addition to addressing children with multiple/untraditional learning modes).

I respect your idea and believe it is worth a try, as charter schools overall are no more successful than public schools (just diverting funds from public schools).

@Lyle -

May be worth looking into. What would the changes be that we would have to make? I'm guessing that this would entail implementing a whole new curriculum, time-table, and proficiency checks, yes? But we could still use our current infrastructure, right?

@JRH...To switch to the same kind of system in use in Northern Europe would require a structural change including to a "year round program", school would begin at age three, curriculum would change, At the end of the ninth grade students would be tracked into either technical or college track. In our case the technical track would involve the technical schools and local employers, union trades, etc. We could use our current infrastructure. My pilot program would be in either MPS or RUSD, the two districts that are in the deepest peril.

Since we are on the topic of a better education system at this point, there are two topics that directly effect students that are not given their due mention. Yes, it is slightly off topic except for the fact that we are discussing the current educational system failures. The two points I want to mention are welfare and child support. If these two "entities" are not changed as well, then any concurrent changes will not be effective. Welfare effects the student because "parents" that are caught in this cataclysmic cycle of "the hand out" instead of giving them a hand up to improve their circumstances allows for child after child to be produced without hardly any parental help or caring. I'm not saying that welfare is the cause of poor education, i am merely addressing another aspect of a flawed system that needs to be revistited. Child support/or the child(ren) has/have become a "tool" to draw funds from one or the other parent to hold said child(ren) back for a year to "get more money" for daycare that is never/rarely used while the parent is out "hanging out" with friends with little or no change to their lifestyle while the child(ren) suffers in reading/math/history/etc. with no accountablity to how the $$$ is being used. As long as this type of behavior is allowable in any system of governing the education system it will not work because too many children will already be behind by the time they enter any level of "schooling". So if we fix one, so must the other be fixed...

Pt 3 Year round school almost seems to be a dead issue in Racine. I don’t even hear about it anymore. I think they may still have it in one of the elementary schools. When they first proposed it, it was met with resistance by the parents, teachers and teacher’s union. It meant changing contracts to allow for teachers to follow the schedule year round. Topped off with the school they chose to start with had no air conditioning. So first they had to spend a $million to put in air conditioning. Then they bought a new computer scheduling program because they just couldn’t figure out how to use the old program for the year round schooling schedule. It never did go into the middle school that was chosen because they couldn’t get enough interest from teachers and students. Top this all off was the additional cost of bussing.

@skinnyDUDE, you are correct in saying the unions would be the big road block as well as the school boards.

Pt 1 @Lyle, I would like to agree with you on the European education system. But sad to say, in the US, it is destined to fail right out of the gate. Prime example is the former “Boy’s Tech”, where my father-in-law, his brothers, and many of the cousins went to, to get schooled in their future technical blue collar careers. Boy’s Tech is no more as it has been turned into an alternative school for those who can’t conform to the regular school system. Our educational system was more like the European style 40 years ago. It is just not a priority of our US educational system to be promoting technical education. The priority is on the arts, sports, socializing, not on blue collar occupations where they may get dirty or have to use some muscle.

Pt 2 “Tracking” actually starts at age 3-4 but isn’t finalized until ninth grade. Problem there is, who determines at such an early age what a person is capable of doing at age 18. From talking to my cousins who went through this, once you are into your track, there is no changing. So if you started into technical education and decided YOU would like to go to college, it doesn’t happen. And yes indeed they start learning English at age 4-5 because the Europeans and many other countries feel that English is the language of the world. And to compete, they must speak English fluently. Not like in the US where English is not a priority anymore. Plus my cousins did not spend class room time having parties, going on field trips, going to pep rallies, watching Disney movies, feeling good about themselves, and all other such social entertainment that takes away from learning. I had a friend who was a big proponent of the German style and would bring his brief case full of information to all the school board meetings and other such community meetings. Everybody ignored him because it would rock the boat.

I'm sorry, but the concept of 'tracking' students from an early age to send them down a specific career path reminds me too much of the selection of the 'A's from the 'B's in Huxley's Brave New World. The aim of our public educational system should be to produce individuals with the basic skills and versatility to respond to any new job situation. That means the ability to read, to communicate, to do math, and above all to learn and to think critically. Beyond that, the individual could choose specific training, but that can be a dead end if that specialty suddenly becomes obsolete -- for instance, a skilled machinist who is replaced by robotics.

@mau...Let me see if i can fill in some blanks that you have raised. First of all, in Europe the skilled trades are highly valued. Working with one's hands carries no negative stereotype as it does here. Part of this comes from the fact that everyone earns a liveable wage and there is a pride associated with craftsmanship. Up until JFK called for us to produce scientists, engineers and mathematicians; skilled labor was valued here. One of the issues we encountered after WWII is that the US didn't have enough skilled machinists and tool and die makers. How did we solve the problem, we imported them from Europe. Until the 1970s, some trades were dominated by European immigration. The Europeans recognized some time ago the changes in the needs of the industrial economic spheres and began training high tech maintenance people to service robotics. In fact, the Northern European work force was so skilled, that to support their economic industrial expansion, they imported labor from the middle east and Balkans to provide a source for unskilled labor. This began in earnest in the late 1950s and early 1960s. We had better get our act together and begin to train people for the new economy. I always remember what my grandfather said, who only had a third grade education; get as much education as you can, but also get a skill and you'll never go hungry.

@Lyle, your grandfather was a wise man. It isn't just in high skilled trades but in everyday life that we have lost the ability to survive. Who even knows how or wants to raise their own food anymore, fix your own vehicle, do repairs around the house. People don't even want to cook or bake anymore, unless it comes frozen or pre-made. And the price of what you have to pay for these services drive people into bankruptcy. I don't know what can be done to instill these values in society anymore. So many skills are being lost.

@Lyle, I just watched a very interesting report on PBS Newshour entitled How Germany Became Europe's Richest Country. I don't see it available for viewing on their web page today but it might be tomorrow. What is striking is the difference in the attitude of the owners and their employees, between the US and Germany. The successful companies were willing to take on journeyman/women and train them and the workers were willing to take cuts in pay and hours so that they could continue to build their skills. And they didn't spend their profits on entertainment or toys, they saved or invested that money. This seems to be more of how the US was 40 years ago.

@mau...In general, Northern Europe including Scandinavia have a much different view of the relationship between labor and managers/owners. It is much more cooperative and both are dedicated to assure the success of the endeavor. German values differ greatly concerning consumerism verses American values of consumerism. We have been educated to be indiscriminate consumers who live in a through away economy. Whereas the Germans are very discriminant consumers and buy based on long term value and durability. Even forty years ago we couldn't compare to the German value ethics.

Hilarious! Standing ovation for Hornswaggle!

Hornswaggle
Can you write Country and Western songs too ;-) Love to see you turn those themes into a hit single.

Thurston... the song's been written. "Life was filled with guns and war, and all of us got trampled on the floor..." La, la, la.... "I wish we'd all been ready" etc. etc. Larry Norman wrote it. My post is a reminder to one of the great support groups of the governor. A group that thinks the gov is one of them! Yet, as the criminal and anti-law person that he is, Scotty is advocating something they fear more than anything else, identification! Personally, I don't believe in the whole apocalyptic story... as told by the fanatic right, but I know the story well. Reminding some of Scotty's identification program will snap some back to reality! Others are too far gone. They'll worship the beast... should he appear.

Perhaps they'll sing your country and Western song for you? All praise to Scott Walker and the republicans for the great things they have done... Praise Scott from whom all blessings flow, praise him all creatures here below... etc. etc.

I laugh... at the boasts of our Governor and at those who worship this anti-christ!

@Hornswaggle -

You're starting to get a little incendiary. In case you didn't get the memo, we're tying to keep this board focussed on the issues discussed by Walker in the article and the discussion civil.

Thanks for your cooperation!

@Hornswaggle... perhaps you should have labeled your post as "irony" as it may cause some cognitive dissonance in the minds of our fellow posters who are a bit "right leaning."

@ Horn...Since you went there, I will too...If your going to quote Bible and the Revelation factor, at least try to remain geographically correct. If you have studied the Revelation factor more closely you would know that the anti-christ arrises from the Easter European nations AFTER the remaining 10 nations give him power...last time I checked...Wisconsin in not part of the EU...so please stay on topic before you make us all look bad...thanks...

As in the New Testament says a person mentioned in the New Testament as an enemy of Jesus, who will appear before the Second Coming and win over many of Jesus' followers. The Antichrist is often identified with a beast described in the Book of Revelation, whom God destroys just before the final defeat of Satan. God will destroy Walker. His followers will never see eternity. Thank GOD.
Webster’s says: To change what is norm for personal, political, or religious reasons is an act of perversion.

Reminder to those posting in this thread on this board - pleae try to stay on topic and leave the incendiary remarks out of your comments.

Thanks!

Just as long as the same standard is applied equally to pieces written by all politicians, then it's really not that big of a deal at all, is it?

But Thurston,
There are two ways to look at this. We could try to get ahead of the most developed countries, which is a lot of work, or...we could try to get as far behind the developing nations, which is pretty simple. It is just a matter of what work you want to do, and it sounds like it might be easier to steal Foxconn jobs then the high end jobs in the world. Just saying.

@Thurston -

The UW system is publicly subsidized higher education, correct? So please explain to me why one shouldn't expect the tuition rates to go up when tax revenues go down, as they have been for quite some time now due to economic recession? Makes sense, wouldn't it?

Apparently, your answer would be to raise taxes on people who are already struggling to make ends meet in the recessionary economy just so that tuition rates can stay low, yes? But what good does that do for those who are working hard and trying to support a family in a tough economy? And we're sick of borrowing and passing the burden on to our children, so that's not an option anymore either.

The crux of Walker's campaign is that he wasn't going to raise taxes, remember? And we already ruled out borrowing. So what's left to do - CUT. If cutting means higher tuition rates, then that just means that you'll have to save up a little longer, forgo a few vacations, pick up an extra part time job, etc if you desire to go to school. And what's so wrong with that? After all, a college education is a luxury, and should be worth sacrificing for.

Even with Walker's cuts, in-state tuition rates within the UW System are still competitively low when compared to neighboring states' public school rates, aren't they?

http://www.kiplinger.com///tools/colleges/index.php?table=public&state_code[]=ALL&id[]=none&sortby=in_state_cost&sortorder=DESC#colleges

Let's be fair and honest about the situation, shall we?

@Hoffa... great job of moderating "your" thread.

Congratulations, you have managed to get your percentage of the posts down to a mere 31%.

@MrsPeel -

I knew you'd be pleased with the decrease in my percentage of posts on this board ;-)

BTW - I'd like to invite you to check out the blog that I actually do run here on Patch, as you may find it interesting if you're a movie lover like I am. It's called 'Hoffa's Retro Cinema Club.' All installments can be found here:

http://mountpleasant.patch.com/users/james-r-hoffa/blog_posts

Cheers!

Jim ...I am trying very hard to remain civil. As far as your comment on any and all of my past comments I would only say that if there was something good that I could say about Gov. W. I certainly would have. What hasn't effected you and your family last week, yesterday or tommorrow does not mean that it won't effect you sometime in the future.

@Bucky -

Thanks for keeping it civil!

I'll keep your words in mind if what you speak of ever comes to fruition.

There they are again... those danged pesky facts. Really though, what would an organization like the Philadelphia Fed, with all of its professionally trained economists and analysts know about economic forecasting?

Perhaps they haven't been reading Governor Walker's memos or listening to his broadcasts. Or perhaps, Governor Walker should spend less time meeting with his high powered defense attorneys and take note of how the surrounding states of MN, MI, IL, and IA are apparently not engaging in the "Race to the Bottom" that Walker has entered WI in?

@MrsPeel -

Apparently, they didn't know enough to predict the financial crisis and housing bubble burst of 2008, despite the fact that followers of the austrian school of economic thought, such as Dr. Ron Paul, predicted both nearly a decade before they were upon us. Go figure, right? Those pesky facts again!

And wasn't it those same economists at the Fed that said that we had to provide Wall Street with a taxpayer funded bailout otherwise the entire global financial system would collapse? I thought you were against bailing out greedy Wall Street bankers, but now you're standing shoulder to shoulder with the people that wanted the bailouts. Could you explain this for me, as I honestly don't understand?

Also, perhaps the Fed should be more interested in being wholly transparent with the American people by volunteering itself to a full audit, instead of having many of its own dirty little secrets that are more likely than not 100 times more illegal and unethical than anything that your side is now alleging that Walker did when he was Milwaukee CE.

But if you want to support a bunch of illusory criminals that like bailing out rich Wall Street bankers, be my guest.

I don't take very much stock in their forecasts and opinions though!

Plus, where's the breakdown for Wisconsin that explains their forecast? For some reason the liberal blog doesn't provide that information. Hmmm… I wonder why?

Watch this and then come back and talk about Ron Paul's predictions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifJG_oFFDK0

Thank you obtw. Amazing.

@MrsPeel -

Don't forget Timothy Geithner as being one of the architects of TARP.

And yes, there's no question that Greenspan was largely a disaster, just as most Fed chair-people were and are.

That's why I don't trust any of their 'predictions,' and honestly, who in their right mind would?

OK - even though it's off topic I have to comment on this.

Honestly why aren't more people considering Ron Paul for President?

He's the real deal hope and change that the others just talk about.

Great video obtw, and thanks for linking us to it!

How does a 40 year failed war on poverty at a cost of over $6 trillion demonstrate a slavish devotion to the free market theories of Milton Friedman?

Who do you think controlled the US legislature for most of those 40 years?

@MrsPeel -

I presume that the Fed report was brought up to refute the jobs record that Walker addresses in the article, thus turning the Fed's credibility into an appropriate topic of discussion.

After all, if the credibility of a source of information pertaining to an issue raised in the article is not an appropriate topic of discussion, then there would be no viable discussion possible as Walker's assertions would be presumed accurate and unrefutable, correct?

So yes, just as Walker's credibility regarding his 'facts' are a viable topic of discussion, so is credibility of the Fed regarding their 'facts' when such 'facts' are being used to refute an issue addressed in the article.

Cheers!

BTW - I'm not finding the specific breakdown explaining why they forecasted Wisconsin the way in which they did via the link you provided.

I can however find breakdowns for the states of Pennsylvania, Delaware, and New Jersey.

Those breakdowns show that Pennsylvania's and New Jersey's economies are growing while Delaware's economy is currently retracting, although still in the positive.

What's interesting to note about the breakdowns is that both New Jersey and Pennsylvania are led by Republican executive branches, while Delaware is led by a Democratic executive branch.

Looks like there's more to the story than meets the eye with the Fed's report, doesn't it?

@MrsPeel -

More likely that those states aren't experiencing mass union boycotts, Capitol protests and occupations, frivolous legal court challenges, death threats against public officials, unending recall elections, etc, wouldn't you say?

What would happen if you eliminated all of those things from the equation here in Wisconsin?

Hmm....

Mrs Peel, give me just one example of a market that was totally deregulated by George W Bush.