Governor Walker left him little choice when he cut state aid to municipalities to solve the State's budget shortfalls. State income tax, sales tax -- yes, even a state property tax levy -- it's all our money, and it should come back to us for education and necessary services rather than going for tax breaks to businesses. It's a matter of priorities.

Craig wake up you conservatard, and do a little research like Randy did!

The " Joker " was the one that gave everyone the tools. Hammers with no handles, saws with no teeth, and screw drivers with broken tips. It's nice though that the " Joker " gave you a toilette plunger to help you get all your chit down the drain.

"Joker"...."Libitard?" This somehow contributes to the discussion?

Regardless, public employee unions' choices don't have much of a track record in the "win" column lately, and Ms. Falk doesn't have the state-wide name power such a steep uphill battle would require, especially since Walker's been defending himself and his record on air for nearly a month already. Obey would be the stronger candidate, in my view, from a strictly political angle. Barrett would be wise to stay home.

barrett not only used and praised the tools, he complained they didn't go far enough and should include Police and Fire!!

The union leaders don't want Barrett because he used the Governors ACT 10 to formulate his latest budget. Here's the reality....
Quote from the Sunday Jan. 1st Milwaukee Journal Sentinel-"The governor did balance the budget with fewer gimmicks than in the past; he did reduce the structural deficit significantly; he did put a lid on property tax increases; he did give schools and municipalities more control over their budgets."
Notice this is not coming from the governor or talk radio, but the largest newspaper in WI. Walker's reforms are working, there's no denying it.

Opportunity knocks and he's properly guessed that any baggage he might have related to the City of Milwaukee won't work against him in this case. The only real qualifications anyone needs this time around is that they not be Scott Walker.

I doubt he's being begged. I think the machine would rather it be Kathleen Falk, as she hasn't run against Walker and lost already and, as a hedge, there's a contrasting demographic difference that might work in their favor with her as the candidate that he, as just another middle aged white guy, can't provide.

@Bob m
With Walker's war on women's health, Falk would be grand.

....................
Bob McBride

2:58 pm on Friday, December 30, 2011

Opportunity knocks and he's properly guessed that any baggage he might have related to the City of Milwaukee won't work against him in this case. The only real qualifications anyone needs this time around is that they not be Scott Walker.

I doubt he's being begged. I think the machine would rather it be Kathleen Falk, as she hasn't run against Walker and lost already and, as a hedge, there's a contrasting demographic difference that might work in their favor with her as the candidate that he, as just another middle aged white guy, can't provide.

Yes, morninmist, totally. Now if it turns out she's a dog lover (not in the biblical sense of course...although, if so, who are we to judge?...but I digress...), she'd be the perfect antidote to his propensity for drowning puppies by the 30 gallon bagful as well. What a grand candidate she would be, indeed.

By Walker's wife so that they can then flee the state ?

Gov. Walker's war on women's health? OMG, stop listening to all the bs!! Mourningmist you really need to start researching and stop reading and quoting blogs!!

Well thats one way to get ahead just keep thinking backwards.

Really,Lavelle -- a 'lectric trolley'? I thought the idea was a high-speed rail line between Chicago and the Twin Cities,just like the railroads in the Nineteenth Century and I-94 in the 1950s. I remember when they built I-94 past my house when I was a kid. It connected the nation and put places on the map. It made jobs for people.

What are you implying with your remark about 'Sodom and Gonorrhea'? Care ti explain that?

Lavelle, So are you tying to say that you were involved in Sodomy and now have Gonorrhea which is common sexually transmitted infection caused by the bacterium neisseria gonorrhoeae ?

@lavelle...You don't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. In the first place, no relation to Barney Rubble of Flintstones fame. I think you should chose your option of moving to one of the surrounding counties. You would be very comfortable with all the other right wing heroes; neo-Nazis, John Birchers, Neo-Federalists, Minarchists, Libertarians, Tea Partiers, White Supremacists, Militia and Republicans. Have a nice life.

@Sarresa
I have had some long time Republicans say essentially the same to me as they signed the recall petitions.

@morninmist..We were highlighted on the news when we went to the rallies in Madison..There was only a couple of us republicans there with anti-Walker signs..But slowly, as Walker stripped our rights one by one, more and more republicans stepped away from the party..I gladly signed my petition, and then went to all my other disgrutled republicans friends and they signed as well..This re-call better go through..Our next hurdle is the republican judge in Walker's pocket that is hearing the re-call case in Waukesha County..I have my letter being drafted for him right now too..His latest decision to not allow the democratic party to intervene on the case really pissed me off..It's their re-call, and should have every right to have a say in the court proceedings..In all fairness, he should have stepped down from the get-go, seeing as how he is not as "un-biased" as a Judge should be..

Does the term RINO mean anything to you? I guess staying afloat only matters when it is at other's expense.

Very well said ladies. This is not about D or R , its about people , its about all of us.

Craigtard ... What much would you pay for a life preserve if the ship was sinking ?

Bucky- I wouldn't have to worry because I buy my own things and don't need to hold a hand out. But if you are asking if mine was taken away from me what I would do? I would tell you they were giving out free meals on the lower deck and take your place in the lifeboat. No doubt the other 11 people in the lifeboat would be blessed to not share space with you.

@Sarresa-- I doubt you were ever a Republican for if you were you would see what's happening. Here's the reality....
Quote from the Sunday Jan. 1st Milwaukee Journal Sentinel-"The governor did balance the budget with fewer gimmicks than in the past; he did reduce the structural deficit significantly; he did put a lid on property tax increases; he did give schools and municipalities more control over their budgets."
Notice this is not coming from the governor or talk radio, but the largest newspaper in WI. Walker's reforms are working, there's no denying it.

Mark , How is Marge doing , love the blue bee hive hair doo ! Russ Feingold couldn't win , stick to your cartoon strip , your hilarious !

Jeff ... Walker is history !

Duh ... ?

You mean like when he had the character to step into a domestic incident and darn near got himself beaten to death? Clearly, that was all about the photo-op.

Let me make myself clear, I would vote for a dead rabbit or a stick before I voted for walker, both have more ehtics and both have a better chance of running the state in a positive direction than walker has.

Anyone would be better in office then what we have at the present time. I would cast my vote for a deaf dumb and blind man with a bald spot on the top of his head but the voters of Wisconsin already elected one.

Nobody I know but, maybe you can have Walkers Swan Song at the Rattison when he leaves office.

If you want to see him in the race then you're going to have to figure out how to get the Democratic party to go with your preference rather than that of two powerful public employee unions who would prefer it be Kathleen Falk and who will most likely be using the leverage of large amounts of money to get their way. Good luck with that.

I agree with @SAM--but I will just not wait---I will work at it.

And here is my new years resolution to achieve that goal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/madison_guy/6608075539/in/pool-1631897@N21?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Especially if your in the bath tub under water !

@Greg...You haven't seen anything yet. Walker and the extreme right wing will assure that will see many dead babies and dead seniors. Businesses will get they subsidies on the backs of the poor and disabled. You and your right wing buddies will be personally responsible for lots of dead babies, unwanted pregnancies, and women suffering because of a lack of affordable and effective healthcare access. A prime example of Walker and the right's "pocket book morality". Is all this death worth a few dollars saved on your tax bill? If you answer yes then your immorality knows no bounds.

@greg who is lyle ruble (barney ruble's relative) thanks for the warning the dead bodies are EVERYWHERE I CAN'T GET OUT OF MY DOOR!!

Give Bush a Peace Prize. Back to Barrett, maybe the Barrett/Obama effectiveness comparison was not real clear, but I thought you would have been able to pick your way through it. The issue I was bringing up was Barrett's failed attempt to do anything about the co-sleeping deaths in the inner city.

No, Bush won't get a Peace Prize, but if the U.S, re-enters the international courts at The Hague, he might get hit with a lawsuit from Auschwitz survivors for the $$ his grandfather Prescott made laundering money for the Nazi Party (until 1942).

Here's a link, which offers a little insight into why George pulled the U.S. out of the IC. In the U.S., individuals can't be prosecuted for crimes of other family members, but it's a bit different in the IC. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Wandering a little far afield there, aren't you Bren?

But while you're perusing the volume titled "Culpability for Nazi Collaboration", make sure you check out the chapter on that other scion of a political dynasty, Joe Kennedy. There's plenty of tin-foil-hat speculation on how that effected the actions of his offspring during their terms in office as well.

Your version of "Joe the Plumber" - at least there's no pretense of traveling the high road with you folks. You should use your exclusive Twitter connection to the movers and shakers (mostly shakers, I suspect) to encourage "Ed" to come in and MC the events #haironfireinWI #jerkyboys2012 #mulligannation

@Bob McBride 9:42 am on Sunday, January 1, 2012

Happy New year to you.

Here are a few tweets I liked this am (I was with Lady Forward in spirit last night).

BTW-ED will be back for the recall election.

fightingteacher Karen Vieth
Midnight gathering at Lady Forward and a healthy dose of "Solidarity Forever" was a great way to begin the new year. #wiunion #recallwalker
7 hours ago

WIProud Solidarity Wisconsin
RT @RecallWalkerBot: Good morning, Wisconsin. You will recall Scott Walker in 12 days. #wi12 #wiunion #wirecall #wiall #p2
15 minutes ago

Ya I heard ian signed the recall petitions at the rally... Really can't wait to start going over petitions and knocking them out... please hurry!!!! Oh and love the woman from England that is proud to have 'voted like an American' by being allowed to sign a recall petition at the airport!! I hope many of the recall workers spend time behind bars and pay fines.........

It's a wonder that you have time to monitor the endless stream of 140 character brainfarts AND keep all the food bowls filled and litterboxes clean. Then again, if you just empty a 20 pound bag of Meow Mix on the kitchen floor, I'd imagine they're pretty good at fending for themselves.

Cynthia are you a hooker ? Bob needs his pipes cleaned. Usually Joe the plumber does it but he's off for the holidays.

mourninmist.......see you didn't even know ian was in town for the first rally at the Capitol?? Tsk Tsk... didn't your blogs tell you that?? And yes she was from England, passport and all... date, time, and location was reported. Talk about bitter mourningmist that's all I read out of you, bitter and lies......

And bucky you have to be the most ignorant disgusting poster on this site!! Half your crap does not even belong on these boards. Bet you make your Mom proud!!

A few FACTS for you Cynthia,

1. I was in Madison for rally for Ian's visit in March.

2. The Ian I saw was a MALE--you know- the one who who PUNKED WALKER.

3. Since it was March, NO ONE COULD SIGN RECALL PETITIONS SINCE THE RECALLS DID NOT START UNTIL APRIL!

You still have presented no evidence that Ian signed a recall petition (as you claim)--. Instead you tried to weasel out of your claim with another stupid post. .

About your comment related to the woman from England--where is your evidence? You have not yet posted it, and based on your posts so far you have no credibility.

Cheers.
...............
Cynthia

9:08 am on Wednesday, January 4, 2012

mourninmist.......see you didn't even know ian was in town for the first rally at the Capitol?? Tsk Tsk... didn't your blogs tell you that?? And yes she was from England, passport and all... date, time, and location was reported. Talk about bitter mourningmist that's all I read out of you, bitter and lies......

mournin mist.... guess you missed him nov at the Capitol, I said I 'heard' not that I saw... we won't know until we go over the sigs will we? ( I know who he is... never said he was a female) Also as for the woman from England... it was reported and we also won't know until the sigs are turned in!!

BTW as usual your facts were spun.... :) I never said anything about March or his gender...

Using your logic, the best strategy would be for any Democratic candidate to change their name to Aaron Rodgers to be assured a win. Or maybe, after today, Matt Flynn.

Bob You're just full of the good stuff today. re: Running a fake Aaron Rodgers for Governor hahahah that's a good one! So, Maybe you can tell me, how much you saved on your property taxes, and if it wasn't a significant amount tell me where did all the millions Walker saved the taxpayer go?

My village still thinks we're in the 90s here and decided to hand out 9-10% raises to some non-union employees for no apparent reason and let out a couple of other urgent, no-competive-bid contract projects (award someone's ex-employer an auditing contract and upgrade and beautify a perfectly functional water tower) to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars. So mine went up. Had Walker not done what he did, they would have gone up more. He probably should have done more, but had he done so we'd probably be dealing with a lynching instead of just a recall. He can't control what the local yokels decide to do - unfortunately.

I'm very happy with what he's done so far. If the efforts of the sore losers prove ineffective, I look forward to more of the same. I'm confident that our school system will not implode and that the poor and elderly won't be stacked up like cordwood at every intersection. I'm even fairly confident that those who feel they deserve a holy card containing their image issued in their honor because they drive a snowplow once in awhile or have to contend with someone's bratty kid for 9 months of the year will eventually come to their senses and realize they're not indispensable. I'm probably being over optimistic in that last regard, but one can hope.

Anything but Bob McBlubber !

@BOB McBride He probably should have done more, but had he done so we'd probably be dealing with a lynching instead of just a recall.
Got any good lynching stories Bob. I bet you attended quite a few.

No, Thursty, I actually attended some of the village meetings related to the budget process and examined the budget materials so blame is being portioned out in the proper fashion in my case.

Guess I hit a nerve there with the other stuff. Sorry about that. I think paying them to do their job is thanks enough. If that's not good enough for them or if they think they can find a better deal elsewhere, so be it. None of what they do couldn't be farmed out to the private sector, probably at a savings and with little or no noticeable degradation in the quality of services provided. In fact my experience in other communities where some of that has been farmed out is that the quality of service is much better and doesn't come with a lot of attitude. Your mileage may vary.

Thurston get a grip on yourself man. I have 2 Walker recall signs in my front yard , 4 bumper stickers on my car and attend Walker recall rally's whenever possible. My wife, daughters and myself have all signed recall petitions. FYI , I have not seen any $$$ come back my way and my taxes both on my residence and properties that I own up north have gone up. All local communities that I know of have had to raise their taxes to cover Walker's cuts.

As long as it costs us taxpayers less, I could care less how they pay their employees or how much profit they make in the process. I don't believe in maintaining inflated compensation for someone just because they happened to qualify for a public service position. If the job can be done cheaper, it should be. On the other hand, I also believe in giving the current organization a second look. If, for instance, we get a better rate farming out snowplowing, I think we should give the current public employee version a chance to meet the bid and, if they can, they get to keep the job. What could be more fair than that?

If it turns out they're overpaid, then they're lessening someone else's power to purchase crap as it is now. So it all works out. Not to worry, Thursty. You'll get used to the new system in time. You'll kinda have to. It's inevitable.

TH3 -- Quit making sense! It spoils the whole blame-the-worker vibe Patch has going!

@Thurston Howell III "We don't have a SUPPLY problem in this country, we have a DEMAND problem!"

This is exactly wrong. Before Steve Jobs invented the ipod, iphone and ipad demand for them was exactly zero. Such innovations come from competition and market choice not government bureaucrats guiding greedy rich people to make better products.

At the risk of uttering Progressive heresy, the middle class in this country has never had it better. The big picture reality is it takes fewer months' wages to purchase a car or other consumer products than 50 years ago and you can't even compare the quality and quantity of most. Many items like smart phones, GPS devices, computers, whole house air conditioning, etc. considered standard issue today (even for the "poor") were not available at any price in the in the alleged heyday of the middle class. Think about a 12 inch black and white TV that gets 3 or 4 channels over the air (and one of them isn't Faux News!) and tell me there's any comparison with "the good old days."

What we have today is economic stagnation caused by the politics of class warfare, dependency and Luddite environmentalism. A majority in this country knows it; expect another major correction at the ballot box in November, 2012.

@Adam Wienieski... I can tell you have never have grasped classical economics. Supply Side classical macro economics is what got this nation into the bind we are in now. Production and product innovation is fine as long as people have made money in order to buy the new products. All the latest data indicates that the middle class has shrunk and previous middle class has slid into the lower working class. Your analysis is way off base.

@Lyle Ruble --
Really, so it was Reagan's supply side fiscal stimulus of permanent reductions in corporate and marginal tax rates resulting in a 25 year period of the greatest wealth creation in history got us in this bind? Not the easy money federal mortgage madness propelling the real estate collapse followed by a classical Keynesian stimulus that stimulated nothing but growth in government and the national debt?

Even allowing for the affordable housing debacle and two years of Obamaonomics GDP has risen by 19 percent since 2000 while the population grew by just 6 percent so per capita income is on the rise. The top 10 percent of households earned 45 percent of total AGI in 2010 (and paid 70 percent of income taxes) so middle class income has grown, not shrunk in any statistically significant time frame.

What's killing the middle and lower classes in particular are the anti-job, anti-growth policies of Obama, the anti-Reagan. We've had 3 years of the tried and failed Keynesian policies of the past. Obama and the democrats have been true to their class warfare rhetoric and in the process led us down the dark road of relentless economic decline.

@Adam Wienieski...The growth in GDP has gone directly to the top, it has not been equally distributed throughout the economy. Income taxes are only part of the story. The marginal tax rates are way too low as well as inheritance and capital gains taxes. The worst part of the supply side is that it reduced all the barriers and significant production has shifted overseas leaving us with a permanent unacceptable unemployment rate. For example, when we export into China we have 40% tariff and into India 50%. Coming the other way it's 3% import tariff. Reagan and Reaganomics represented the begin of end for this nation. Your trickle down theories have trickled right out of the United States. Supply siders are guilty of treason, pure and simple.

Lyle, you are conflating fiscal stimulus and free trade. So on planet Ruble free trade is treason and protectionism is patriotic? If the Chinese have a cure for cancer and we have some shiny new iphones they want to buy we're going to stick it to them by refusing to sell? History is replete with examples of how trade barriers hurt consumers in the countries that institute them and trade wars only make everyone poor (the Smoot-Hawley tariff act helped send us into the Great Depression.) It's not a thoughtful prescription for creating jobs, wealth or economic confidence.

Since the end of the cold war over 2 billion Chinese and Indians have joined the world economy, how could that NOT have an impact on US employment and manufacturing? Is low skill, piece-work manufacturing of the kind done in third world countries something you do for a living, if not, why would you wish it for your countrymen?

Perhaps 50 percent of everything ever invented in the history of humanity was invented in the last 130 years and half of that was invented by Americans. The pace of innovation and global competition is getting quicker we can't just get off the world and go back to being Ward and June Cleaver.

@Adam Wienieski...It's too late now the genie is out of the bottle and there's no going back.I never wanted isolationism and I wouldn't advocate it, but we sold our souls for cheap prices and access to the emerging Asian markets. It's not even true free enterprise in China since the only way business can set up is to take on the Chinese government as partners either directly or through their proxies. Companies bitch and complain here about governmental control and regulation, but they're up to their necks in it in China. the U.S. economy is headed down and there isn't anything we can do about it. We have been sold out for short term profits and left holding the bag to clean up the mess and deal with the social costs. Ward and June Cleaver were always a myth. Globally we are in the midst of the "Great Regression toward the Means". It's because of the stupidity of people like you. I hope you got yours because it's going to be pretty slim pickins from now on.

You're right Lyle that the genie is out of the bottle, but on the other hand we shouldn't be letting people get so damned obscenely rich off of a rigged game.

It is too bad that roughly 30% of us buy into the notion of fighting for this ridiculous status quo. If enough people stopped buying the kool aid and got politically active we wouldn't be in this predicament and the issue of money in politics would be mute.

It is time people stood up for themselves, our future and our character as a country.

@Thurston Howell III--Go back to Gilligan's Island, your opinions might matter there but certainly not in reality.

Why do you have a problem with essentially doing a comparative price check on the services provided by public employees and making sure that when things like contracts are let out to vendors, they're done using ethical practices, rather than handing them off to past employers or a single cherry picked vendor?

When you contract for services for your home (assuming you own one), do you just pick a name out of the phone book and pay them whatever they want? When you buy a car (assuming you can drive) do you just walk onto the lot and write out a check for the sticker price? Why is it okay with you if your tax dollars are often spent that way?

Who knows? Maybe if public employees are as under compensated and unappreciated as you and others on your side always claim, that will show up in a comparative analysis and they'll actually have some hard figures to use to argue their case, rather than relying on emotional appeals like the one you're attempting to make. If not, then yes I think it's worth giving them the option of meeting a competitive bid and retaining their position - or not and finding work elsewhere.

The revenue base for pubic expenditures is shrinking and it will continue to shrink. We can start taking measures to make sure we're spending that dwindling resource wisely, or we can wait until we've backed ourselves into a corner and fight our way out with a machete. It would seem that the latter is your preference.

Of course the revenue base is shrinking. So long as we think is OK for a minority to make a crap load of money through sending jobs to the Reds in China (two legs good) and getting obscene compensation and bonuses as a result (think Reversible Mittens at Bain Capitol) the mass of the middle class will see shrinking wages, leading to shrinking taxes.

And no, I have no remedy but for starters, let's start regarding this as inappropriate and unsustainable.

McBride - you should look at the wage comparisson data for the 50 states and the private sector data versus the public sector data which is compiled annually. I you actually looked at the available data you would have many of the answers to your flawed logic and at the same time would not appear so foolish. I suspect however that facts that do not support your positions are irrelavent in your mind. Walker and the conservative will never create jobs because there is no benefit in that for the party financial sponsors. Breaking the unions allows them to ship more formerly agreement protected jobs overseas. If you truly believed what you spew you would only buy american products, if you can find them. Most of the unemployed now will end up permanently umemployed. Thier jobs have gone to the lowest bidder. As our purchasing power drops, more jobs will move to where the consumers are in other nations that are deveoping. Economists have been warning for years that our economy is in a transition from a manufacturing base to a service base. Just like in the 20's to 30's when we transitioned from agriculture to manufacturing. The current conditions will persist and get worse until our leadership decides to help the transition. Walker and the conservatives are clueless and as a result we will founder for years until the workforce and leadership adapt to the new economy. Walker is not up to the challange and is clueless.

Welbes go back and reread what I wrote and then explain why your afraid to even consider the possibility of evaluating any of the things I mentioned. Why look at 50 state averages when you can make direct comparisons here via a competitive bid process? Why would a procurement procedure that prohibits the kind of examples I give above be objectionable? Why is questioning frivolous expenditures (like the one I noted concerning the water tower example I gave) during a time of reduced revenues a bad thing?

Can you answer any of those questions honestly without going to into the boilerplate end of the world as we know it scenario that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm suggesting?

Keith S, none of this was a problem for folks like you until the effects of it started to be felt by the sacred public sector - now it's the end of the world. No kidding you don't have a remedy. If you did, you'd be on the cover of Time magazine instead of the protester or whatever they chose this year.

The time to have recognized "this" as inappropriate and unsustainable would have been about 20 years ago when the twin catalysts for it (developing economies outside the US and the technology making it possible to utilize them from here) were in their infancy. That ship has sailed (along with the jobs) and we're left with a situation we no longer control. Short of complete isolation, there's nothing we can do to create jobs that pay the kinds of wages we're accustomed to over here. So we have a choice. We can bitch about it, point fingers in the wrong direction, kick the can down the road a bit and hasten our pace into the iceberg by attempting to maintain something we no longer can or we can ALL make some concessions (as many of us have for years) and attempt to ride it out.

Frankly, I could care less if we confiscated 100% of the holdings of the "1%" - no skin off my back - other than it being about as effective a solution as is slapping a bandaid over the surface evidence of melanoma.

The allegory of Gilligan's Island really is a good one for you. Lost in the past, isolated from the reality of the larger world. Constrained to a small community of equally out of touch individuals. And unable to escape that island from the past, despite repeated opportunities to do so. You couldn't have picked a more appropriate moniker, even if you weren't aware of its significance at the time.

Thurston, I couldn't agree with you more about trying to counter the ridiculous responses of McBride, et.al., but what seems to be happening is that many of the commenters with the voice of reason have disappeared from Patch due to the overwhelming responses of the crazies. If you don't agree with them you're just part of the "liberal media." It gets really, really tiring to try to keep up with the amount of spew coming from them. They never sleep or tire or work. They only expel their party line. There's nothing new or original in their thought process! You've seen one comment, you've seen them all. I'm just trying to get you to realize that your arguing with door knobs.

@thurston howell lll hey vicki what kind of cheese do you want with your whine.

Good job, Lavelle. That 'whine and cheese' remark was very original.

to randy1949 please read slowly it was written so that you could get it

Of course you do. Because I'm right. I'm also correct.

Thanks for noticing!

Beautiful Thurston! That's why I refer to reich wing talk radio as Bartalk.

I had my radio on 620 from yesterday's game and when I went to my car this morning Jeff Wagner came on. Jeffchitchat makes a box of rocks come off as Einstein.

Say hi to Lovey for us.

William,

What's ill informed about taking a case by case analysis on a local basis and effectively bidding out services performed by a department? Your figures deal with averages from a "review" which may or may not have included proper comparisons.

If a study like the one you mention was the definitive end-all on the topic, why do some communities regularly study and in some cases actually implement such things as combining services with other communities to achieve savings, farming portions of their operations out, investing in cost saving equipment that effectively reduce manpower requirements? Is their objective union busting, or attempting to run in a cost efficient fashion?

What I'm suggesting, as regards public employees (I'll note that you chose to ignore the other elements I mentioned - procurement procedures, expenditures on non-necessities), is that this be done in all communities, because it makes sense to do so. Frankly, there is no degradation in services when a community, for instance, switches its garbage collection to a private service.

The world doesn't revolve around your unions. It's not the duty of the taxpaying public to serve their needs.

And as regards teachers, any study that shows that teachers in the private sector receive better overall compensation than those in the public sector is completely suspect. I'll give the study itself the benefit of the doubt and attribute that conclusion to your faulty interpretation.

And just further...

Despite your singular focus on public employee unions, I'm actually more concerned about some of the raises I've seen given in my community to non-union employees (some in the range of 9-10%) during a time when communities should be looking to hold the line at the very least - as well as some of the expenditure decisions I've seen during this same time period. One of the reasons Walker did what he did is that local officials seem, for whatever reason, to be unable (or unwilling) to take the kinds of steps necessary to rein in costs. Based on what I've seen going into the 2012 budget in my village, I'd say he's correct in that regard.

I'm beginning to believe that it's the decision making process itself that has something to do with it. You've got trustees who meet on a limited basis charged with making decisions and relying on recommendations from department heads who, from what I've seen, don't always include all the information that should be put forth for the kinds of decisions being made. In addition, since the trustee position is essentially a volunteer (albeit elected) position, not all trustees possess the optimal skill set for making such decisions.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest you take in a few meetings in a row in your local community. You may come to the same conclusion I have - that a lot of waste could be stopped at the local level by restructuring and refining the decision making process.

@William
I had saved a few files about wages-compensation that rang a bell when I read your post. I have not delved into the meat of the study recently. But it seems that as you say there is reseach out there that points to the private public sector and how public wages are not keeping up with private wages/compensation.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/04/28/news/economy/public_workers_earn_less/index.htm
Government jobs not so cushy

By Chavon Sutton, staff reporterApril 28, 2010: 3:33 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- State and local workers earn less than their private sector counterparts and the pay gap is widening, according to a report released Wednesday.

Public workers earn 11% to 12% less than workers in private companies, according to a joint study from the Center for State and Local Government Excellence and National Institute on Retirement Security.

The report, which analyzed 20 years of data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, also found that the pay gap has generally widened over the last two decades, as private compensation moved higher while earnings for state and local workers fell.

"The big divergence began to occur in the late 1990s," said John S. Heywood, a professor in the economics department at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee and co-author of the report. "It's an issue."

You can read the full report here by clicking on the embedded links within the story.

http://wiafscme.org/index.cfm?action=article&articleID=ec7460f9-a155-4e78-adc7-cbf2efcaea02
"The full report is available at www.slge.org and www.nirsonline.org";
Study Refutes Public Employee Bashers

Employees of state and local government earn an average of 11% and 12% less, respectively, than comparable private sector employees, according to a recently released study. An analysis spanning two decades shows the pay gap between public and private sector employees has widened in recent years.

These findings are contained in a new report, “Out of Balance? Comparing Public and Private Sector Compensation Over 20 Years,” commissioned by the Center for State and Local Government Excellence (Center) and the National Institute on Retirement Security (NIRS). The study provides an original analysis of data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. The study finds that:

Jobs in the public sector typically require more education than private sector positions. Thus, state and local employees are twice as likely to hold a college degree or higher as compared to private sector employees. Only 23% of private sector employees have completed college as compared to about 48% in the public sector. ...

I'll retract my statement giving the study the benefit of the doubt (if in fact these were the studies William was referring to). Thankfully morninmist has no qualms, as usual, about citing sources with an agenda as paragons of fact based information.

I'll stick to my preference for direct comparisons via a competitive bid process versus relying on the results of a study designed to achieve desired results as a means of determining whether or not we're getting the best bang for our buck by continuing to have services provided by public employees at current compensation levels.

Page 7 table 1 shows how the public sector employees do make more per hour from 1983 - 2008 and for all years of this study.

Then the two state college professors from UW-Milwaukee spend the next 18 pages cherry picking some individual states such as Michigan, Illinois, New York, California, Pennsylvania & Florida in an attempt to explain how Table 1, pg. 7 isn't really an accurate reflection wages per hour in a public vs. private comparable job market.

Of course this was all about breaking unions. How else do you explain that only union public employees are subject to the cost-of-living increases absent a referendum? If you're a public employee NOT in a union, there are no such limitations.

We have hired five science teachers four chemists and a mathematician all in thier 30s with masters degrees who were making between 33k and 38K teaching. Our normal starting pay for that level is 55-60k. In teaching they reached a salary cap under the old union contracts and I dont remember the exact number but it was around 58-60k but I may be off. Our cap is totally limited by them and thier productivity but our average salary by age 45 is more than 95K and peaks right now at 135. They left teaching because they no longer saw a future nor could they afford to stay. In many districts those are difficult positions to fill and many are using non-science temps to fill in with the book. That is one example of the pay differential and how it will impact our districts. It takes time to get them up to speed and used to the private demands but we can start them lower and come out ahead. One thing you will find happening is now the salary caps are lifted the salaries will climb like other public workers without the caps and second you will find more of the skilled educated labor ditching education as a career and going into industry. If the economists are right we are attacking our education system at the time when we most likely need it the most. There are a lot of jobs and trades that will not be coming back recovery or not. It would appear that some choices are going to extend the recession indefinately.

And to William Welbes,
I absolutely agree with you on this. The teachers who can do other jobs that I talk to are all poised and ready to hit the private sector. The next round of budget crunches will find another mass exodus from the schools. But not to worry, as some of our friends here have made it apparent, anyone can do the job.

I will agree with sha guy on compensation between private and public, which regards to religious schools only. But, I will say this, I will not martyr myself in service to any church as is the expectation for those schools. The reality is this, many are struggling and there is a good reason for this. Attendance and donations are down, and the expense of the school is subsidized by the church. This is why it can be affordable to send your child to a private school. Maybe I am missing something, as Mother Theresa seemed pretty happy.

There are numerous studies that I was refering to morningmist gave you the link to one. I was not refering to teachers specifically to the data that indicates that state union workers on average earned 5-10% than the private sector. With teachers it depends on the school. My uncle left the milw. school system to teach at the Prairie School in Racine that was funded by Johnson Wax and he got a 25% salary increase and better benefits and he escaped the salary cap that union teachers have. So It is not that improbable. You forget that for those benefits union teachers have a maximum salary cap that they reach. Under the new system those caps are gone so teachers no like other workers can continue to get raises once they reach the former cap level. You also forget that private schools that are non-union do not have the caps so ultimately over thier career they can make more than thier union counterpart of the extent of thier career because they dont work the last years at a frozen salary level. You also forget that many specialty magnet schools pay higher wages to attract better teachers with greater skills. You seem to want to lump all teachers into one group and they arent. It is your own ignorance that is laughable. The world is not as simple as you would like it to be.

While there may be a need to raise some taxes, raising them without making cuts where possible is pointless. If the net effect is to sustain inefficient government organizations and shelter a certain segment of the economy from the effects felt by others, then all we're doing is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

As far as your second point goes, if, as your side claims, cutting taxes has no effect on hiring, neither will increasing them. Businesses are not going to expand beyond what they're able to sell, simply to avoid paying taxes. At certain levels, they may attempt to absorb unprofitable competitors to gain market share through a process of eliminating some competition and, thus, achieve some tax breaks via that methodology (and yes that does happen on the "small" business level), but I hardly think that's the desired effect you're looking for as that tends to end up eliminating jobs rather than providing more of them.

Overall, you're not going to address the core problems with this economy via tax policy, because you can't. It comes down to the same thing we always end up arguing about. Redistribution of wealth and whether or not the private sector or the government spends in a fashion more conducive to "growing the economy". Since government efforts in that regard invariably include some sort of social policy element that more often hinders than helps, I'm not sold on more government involvement via tax confiscation or borrowing on the future.

I agree with the obscene profit thing Keith. There is no way that government union prison guards should be retiring with $140,000 a year pensions. Thanks for pointing that out.

Hudson -- The average annual pension for a Wisconsin AFSCME member is $19,000.

@Bob McBride....What has to be realized is that the American lifestyle is in a period of great contraction. As I like to call it "The Great Regression Towards the Means". Because of our past over consumption at the cheapest price available, we have sold our future viability for cheap things. Until we come to grips with the reality that we are moving from a first tier nation, who can no longer dominate the world economically, politically and militarily, to a less important position. Just as Great Britain found it's dominance reduced in the early 20th century, the U.S. is following the same path in the early 21st century. It's not a big mystery how we got here, but it is unclear how we should proceed, given the bed we have made for ourselves. We can continue to personally spend like drunken sailors or we can wisely use our reduced resources. In some instances, not all, privatization for non-essential services could be privatized. However, before doing so we damn well better know the hidden costs in doing so. The U.S. government has been using contracted services for well over 1-1/2 centuries and there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Anytime a public agency contracts out, it must be accompanied by thorough oversight and management. This is precisely where these schemes fail; lack of proper oversight. Proof is found in Halliburton Kellogg/Brown and Root, Black Water and closer to home; the failure to provide oversight to daycare. (continued)

an average of 19,000 pension is still about $19,000 more than the pension of the same private sector employee. Plus they get paid more based on the study referenced above!

@Bob McBride...Often times to provide proper oversight of contractors it takes more specialized contract officers and managers, in sufficient quantities to assure the job is done right; resulting in higher wages and benefits and not necessarily return enough cost savings to make it worth the while for the taxpayers. The question must be asked if we are going to maintain the same levels of service, reduced levels of service or increased levels of service. This can only be done through studies do comparisons.

For most public employees, they are finally getting hit with the harsh realities of generally reduced expectations. We are currently going from what we were to what we will be. Now it is our job as the taxpayer to not function as a bad employer to squeeze the public employees so hard that they can no longer maintain a minimal middle class life style.

As public revenues are squeezed, the wealthy have got to sacrifice also. For the most part it was they who have gained at everyone else's expense. Time to restructure the tax code and put this nonsense behind us.

This nation cannot exist solely as a service economy. We have to look to our agricultural product, etc to carve out a niche so that we can continue a place in the world of first nations.

Lyle,

Any good analysis takes all your concerns into account. It's not about privatizing everything, it's about obtaining the acceptable level of service for the best price available. I'm less concerned about who does the work than I am that it's being done effectively and efficiently. That's not just an issue of employees, as I've noted repeatedly above. It's also about adhering to time honored principles in the process of procurement and contracting while at the same time taking into account the general state of the economy.

Your statement about our lifestyle is something that's duly noted and, for anyone who is just coming to that realization now, should have been duly noted around the same time we were all sitting around with baited breath waiting for the opportunity to jump on board of the IPO being offered on behalf of shoelaces.com or whatever. In other words, this is nothing new. Which, again, leads me to believe that there are a number of folks who've led a rather sheltered life over the past 20 years or so. I'm not inclined to go easy on those folks just because it's new to them. Maybe if they hadn't remained so artificially isolated for so long we wouldn't be where we are today - distracted by nonsense like recall elections and directionless street demonstrations and the like.

@Lyle Ruble "...Often times to provide proper oversight of contractors it takes more specialized contract officers and managers," Nonsense!

My choices for poor oversight would be Fannie, Freddy, Solyndra, wind farms failing due to subsidy loss, ditto ethanol producers. But these failures had nothing to do with lack of oversight. Every one of them failed because of political will trying to outweigh economic reality. Barney Frank, Chris Dodd et al. (with the help of the Clinton admin) forced the banking industry to make loans to those unable to repay ( think minority constituents), and created the derivative products to back such worthless paper investments. We are all paying for that misguided "compassion."

As for your ongoing rant of the wealthy "have got to sacrifice also. For the most part it was they who have gained at everyone else's expense." Get a grip. Unless they gained by taxing everyone else, their gain came as result of a marketable product that nobody was forced to buy. The fact I chose to buy Microsoft and Apple products last year was not at my expense. It was at my choice.

@GearHead...Your myopic views are precisely what has gotten us into this mess. Your attitude of get mine now and to hell with the future is only kicking pebbles and kicking it down the road. I am attempting to point out that privatization carries risk and expense. Since the supply of money for services will be in short supply, we need to do it right. I didn't exempt Democrats or Republicans for getting us into this mess. It was the adoption of supply side classical economics that put us here. of all those programs you stated, they were not overseen responsibly nor was it correct to remove troublesome financial regulations. The whole idea of creating an "Ownership Society" was nothing more than a political myth. Rule #1: Never trust the banks! Rule #2: Never trust Wall Street! Rule #3: Never trust global corporations! Rule #4: Never trust insurance companies! Rule #5: Never trust Petro/Chem!. Rule #6: Never trust big healthcare providers!. Rule #7: Never trust big corporate media! When dealing with any of these entities always assume they are motivated by greed and power, screwing their own mothers to achieve wealth and power. You can't prepare for the future by returning to the past.

@Lyle. The market continues to work just fine, as long as government doesn't barge in and screw it up. Exhibit One would be the take-over of General Motors. The bankrupcy should have gone through the appropriate legal channels, and GM would have emerged stronger and leaner, having shed its uncompetitive legacy costs. Instead, through the Obama czars, the stockholders and bondholders of GM got screwed, and the bloated UAW ends up as half-owner. We get the Volt, which nobody wants and is subsidized to the tune of 250K a pop. Then you have the nerve to say "Since the supply of money for services will be in short supply, we need to do it right." Building cars nobody wants, building brick and mortar school solutions for educational problems that don't have anything to do with buildings isn't even close to "doing it right." Your own myopia is getting in the way of common sense.

@GearHead...The market is doing just fine? Don't try to pass on that misinformation. When did I say it was right for the government to bail out GM? That's what I mean about your myopia. Instead of accepting responsibility, you want to shift it off and play the blame game. We cannot sustain the system as it is. Thirty plus years of supply side voodoo economics has eroded the middle class and the nation's ability to produce anything except aircraft and military hardware. that all boils down to only one conclusion, we're all in trouble unless you're part of the one percent; and, if you are you don't care anyway.

Gearhead, if Obama hadn't helped save GM the bankruptcy would have taken down scores of suppliers in Wisconsin and jobs with it.

Despite the claims of Democrats being enemies of capitalism, why is it this party is the one that steps in to save it?

@Lyle. I've never shifted blame for anything; being a small businessman means if I fail it is my fault, notwithstanding the ever-increasing barrage of government compliance. Supply-side economics has been a boon to the middle class. What has hurt the middle class is government encroachment and high taxation that has far outgrown the economy. It started with the Great Society programs of Johnson, although the seeds to our destruction were sown decades earlier under Roosevelt. Basically, when you pay people to be unproductive, is there any suprise when you get unproductivity? And that's not "getting it right" to use your words. Every time we listen to liberals, they think they are the smartest people in the room. Obama himself proclaimed we have to run this country "smarter", as if those before him were idiots. The markets are terrified of him and ObamaCare, which is destined to bankrupt the country. Oust Obama, and the markets go up 1000 points overnight. That would be great for my 401K, although it doesn't matter to you with your government pension.

@GearHead...The only thing that supply side economics has been a boon to is the wealthy, letting them get wealthier. I don't know what measures you are using, but the clear fact is that real wages have not kept up with inflation.

The removal of any and all reasonable regulation has led to the deplorable conditions we are facing. When as a small businessman, I found that complying with government regulations was just part of doing business. Instead of bitching and moaning about it, I just incorporated it into doing business. What pissed me off was the continuing price increases of healthcare and business law that was written to favor big business and penalized smaller businesses in the process. As an entrepreneur I have had small manufacturing businesses and service businesses. I don't know how old you are or what kind of business you do, but you don't seem to have a very good grasp of economics. I saw all of this coming some thirty years ago when Reagan and Jack Kemp started this garbage. Even David Stockton eventually came to understand the error of supply side and the fallacy of "trickle down economics".

@Lyle: I'm old enough to have voted for Reagan, and Ford before him. I've lived through the Carter misery index, so I don't appreciate your dismissive swipe at my age. As for rising health care, every breakthrough in medicine is an enemy to the cost of health care, as long as it becomes mandated by government. Simple economics tell us when we use more of something, it costs more in aggregate. That includes botique drugs, 26 year-old children, over-testing by physicians to protect themselves from lawsuits, mamograms even though I'm a guy, and sex change operations even though I have no interest in them. I still have to pay for the coverage, by law, and it will get worse, not better under ObamaCare.

So why do I want to hire on an employee, when the marginal cost to me is skyrocketing? I can deal with and strategize around my market competition. Getting slammed by regulation, litigation high taxes and ever increasing fees and "oversight" is what's killing me, and running countless other small businesses out of business. And your so-called "cost of doing business" is making BIG business uncompetitive with the rest of the world. Trust me Lyle, nobody but you see overreaching government as a "cost of doing business." How clueless of you.

@GearHead....You have consumed too much of the supply side lemonaide. It looks like you reached your majority just as Reaganomics was coming into fashion. Basically you've been living in a bubble for the last 35+ years. I can understand that you can't comprehend any other type of reality. However, it's not been the government that have buried us but financial policies, financial institutions and the multi-nationals, that have no alligance to anything except their bottom lines. A substantial change occured when businesses stopped long term planning and only worried about the next quarters ROI. Couple that with indiscriminate consumption and easy credit, that is the recipe for the disaster that we're currently in. How we proceed from here is going to be the challenge. With the opinions and attitudes you are showing here, I don't know if you are going to be part of the solution or if you'll continue to perpetuate the problem. Get used to high unemployment and paying high social costs, you helped create it.

@Keith Schmitz: You have a poor understanding of bankrupcy. Going bankrupt doesn't mean going out of business. GM would still be building cars, utilizing parts made from Wisconsin suppliers. But nice try anyway. Because of Obama, the taxpayers have been screwed, and the union was protected. The legacy costs of pensions and benefits still haven't been dealt with, unlike here with WI public union workers. GM will continue to hemmorage, but now at taxpayer expense. Any other explanation (including yours) is silly, and defies logic.

Gearhead, as much as it pains me to admit it, as regards the effects of bankruptcy on creditors (in this case, suppliers) Keith is right. The degree to which suppliers would be stung in a bankruptcy settlement depends on the type of bankruptcy and the way what would be left over could be divided amongst them, if it was the kind where creditors can collect a percentage of what's owed them. It's most likely that they'd get nothing, as certain types investors have first dibs on the proceedings, I believe. Which is why the Obama administration stepped in and made the conscious decision that it was preferable to stiff the investors rather than let the creditors eat it and/or have the union membership take a total hit. It perfectly follows the prescripts of the progressive tradition that abhors inactive profit taking and celebrates the worker at the expense of management. Not to mention the collective leg tingle all the lefties got from having the government "take over" long enough to can some management and install folks of their own.

You're correct that GM would remain in business under certain forms of bankruptcy (and most likely would in their case) and could still contract with the same vendors, assuming they'd have survived the hit they took from the bankruptcy and were willing to continue to do business with GM.

As for the undesirable Volt... As long as gasoline is subsidized with tax payer money, the "low" cost will drive down the desirability of cars that we should be driving. If fuel was $8/gallon, attitudes and purchases would change drastically. Should we subsidize fuel? Should we subsidize Ethanol? Does Ethanol actually lower emissions cradle to grave? That is a yes and no, all depending on production method.

To those who need this clue: approximately 3.5% of the US economy is based on auto manufacturing. Over 4.5M workers in the US are employed in automotive manufacturing. That is the summation of the auto makers(domestic and foreign), their suppliers and the suppliers suppliers and so on. The decisions made with regard to GM and Chrysler were not to be taken lightly. So on either side of the fence: bankruptcy or subsidize, either decision would have severe ramifications. Here in Wisconsin those percentages are larger than the US in general due to our dependence on manufacturing.

And when do we treat oversized government as a pariah? Realize that the largest component of US GDP is government. Larger than manufacturing, R&D and RE. WTH?

@Say What. Gasoline is not subsidised, beyond the worthless ethanol component of it. If eight dollar gas occurs, we already know you will blame Bush for it. The fact that gasoline is so much more expensive in Europe and elsewhere is because of the massively larger government taxes on it above and beyond the ugly taxes at federal and state levels we already have here. Between feds and state, they take over 6 times the profit of the oil companies, without any of the investment or work.

The market has spoken on the Volt, and they say it sucks. Own one for a few years, and the enevitable replacement of batteries will cost tens of thousands of dollars. This is economy? No, this is what happens when the federal government tries picking winners and losers. The GM union won. We lost.

@Lyal: Cut back on the high social costs (spending), and the unemployment will magically go away. Duh!!!! But you don't have the stones to admit that. I do. This isn't rocket-brainiac stuff, as much as you want to spin your intellect.

@GearHead....You are so typical of the amoral businessman, create a mess and then walk away. Social costs are those costs associated with business practices. When the nation moved from manual farm labor to mechanized farming, huge numbers of the population were left unemployed. Within decades the Industrial Age provided employment for any and all that wanted to work. As we closed out the 1960s we had moved from conspicuous consumption to inconspicuous consumption and dependency on consumer credit. We have moved from an industrialized production economy to an information dominated service economy. However, the loss of production capability has been accelerated by moving production offshore to produce at cheaper costs of production to sustain unsustainable inconspicuous consumption. Prices had to go down in order to support falling real purchasing power. Now we find ourselves saddled with the high social responsibility costs and you want to walk away. We will continue to experience 15% to 20% true unemployment and most will be off the books, but will need services. We cannot turn our backs on these citizens. These are not the welfare class, but represent the working and middle class that has suffered, through no fault of their own, from the pursuit of supply side policies.

I calculate your age to be around the early 50s, to young to serve in Vietnam and too old to serve in the 1st Gulf War. Your age group came of age during the greed and self interest of the 1980s. (cont.)

@GearHead...(cont.) Given that you are a member of this in between group, who haven't really been challenged, I guess we can't expect you to understand societal duty and responsibility. Under the circumstances you don't appear to fully understand the implications of business direction and policies only implemented during Ronald Reagan's ill conceived administration and fiscal policy. It is my nature to look at things in depth and the situation is far more complicated and obtuse to lightly pass it off. We are all facing reduced standards of living brought on by the implementation and continuation of supply side economics.

One truth should be known, locally what ever Walker does to stimulate business by giving away the farm will prove to be unsuccessful. It's just payoffs for his political supporters. Whether you hire one, two or ten new employees, it will probably be in vain to stimulate the state's economy. It would take 10,000 local businesses in Wisconsin to hire 10 employees each, to even begin to overcome the current economic stress in this state.

It appears that you hold in disdain anyone who expends the energy to more fully understand and grasp the larger picture and the probable future. Keep thinking your simple thoughts and remain happy until reality slaps you in the face and awakens you to a new perspective.

I have to agree with McBride on this one. I think we need a balance of higher taxes and intelligent cost cuts. I do believe we could cut for a period of time the defense budget by eliminating the pork purchases that politicians insist on the military dosent want like jet engines from a second manufacturer that the air force dosent want or need for 200 million or the humvee contract the army dosent want that are being pushed by politicians. We should eliminate all corporate subsidies. If it really needs a subsidy it is not a viable business. Or alternatively give all companies a subsidy not just those that spend millions on lobbyists like the oil companies or the corporate jet builders to write breaks into legislation for them There are programs that handle new technology development that should be expanded. Perhaps a war tax would be appropriate until our debts are resolved. It did work well in the past. Coupled with tax reforms that make sense this should not be as difficult as it is. Just elimiate all special treatment and corporate favors from the tax code.If prices go up so be it then we are paying the true cost. My guess would be competition will prevail and we will have an even playing field. I really think our problem lies with what are the future products/services/industries that we will be developing and dominating.

@Lyal: Thanks for looking down your nose at me; I'll take that as a complement. You don't know who I am, what I am, or why I am. But I know a lot about the early baby boomers like yourself (aged early 60's right now) because I've picked up a lot of their messes having screwed up everything they've attempted. Clueless frauds who fell into jobs they weren't qualified for through the luck of business expansion and the need for warm bodies in leadership. Sadly many of these incompetent boobs found their way into govenment as well. It is one thing to be compassionate, Lyle, with your own time and money. There is no compassion in spending someone else's. My compassion is born out of the "teach a man to fish" category. As a nation, a state, and a neighborhood we have gone broke giving the fish away. You just haven't figured that out yet. I don't mean that in a mean way. But it is doubtless we will ever agree on much.

@GearHead....Let me first address the teaching a man to fish myth. I agree that it is better to teach a man to fish as long as there are fish to be caught. Unfortunately, for a large number there are no fish left.

Just as I don't know your story except what you have placed in print, you don't know mine. I am the leading edge of the baby boom. Unlike my fellow boomers, I didn't follow their philosophy or lifestyle. Sure I did my work in solcial justice and politics, but I also did my 9 years in the Navy. I worked my way through school and worked as a psychotherapist for a mental health system. Even as I was in the military and social work, I had various business ventures going on. When I went to business full time it was in the 70s and the turbulent business conditions. I have been successful, gone bust a couple of times and wouldn't trade any of it. I am still commtted to social justice and now I have the time to devote to my passion, social, ethical and morale philosophy. My needs are simple and I live a very sedate lifestyle.

I also recognise greed and selfishness when I see it or read it. Just remember, you can teach a man to fish so he can feed himself, but when fishing doesn't work he still needs to eat.

We get it Nick. You don't care about the little nickel and dime issues (that might actually add up to something in the long run if you'd bother extrapolating a bit). But someone's got to attend to the daily drudgery while you contemplate your navel for the betterment of all.

KT,

I don't really need to google it. I simply read the study that Morninmist referenced and ciphered through the liberal ramblings and excuses of the two UW-Milwaukee professors.

Sorted by education, not job description. You could compare people within the private sector alone and find that there are wide discrepancies for those with the same level of educational achievement. All that proves is that education alone is not the key determinant when evaluating compensation levels. A better comparison would be one where the jobs held by public employees are compared to their counterparts in the private sector within a specific geographic region, education level aside.

KT,

Thank you. We are trying to work together by asking public employees to contribute a very small sum towards their own healthcare and retirement to help our state out.

However, despite your plea for unity, all that small request did was incite a near riot in Madion for weeks that included bomb threats, property damage, assaults and threatening the life of our governor and other Republican members of our legislature.

Now your saying we need to work together because the credibility of a study done by two biased UW-Mke professors is questioned?

Funny how you think that only the Republicans have been saying "no" for the past 3 years. How long have they been the party in power?

Nick, I'm still waiting for you to stop ragging on everyone else and to come up with something of substance. How much longer am I going to have to wait, Nick? Got anything other than references to dead guys and your plute-teaparty-sykes-tmj nonsense? Anything? Nick?

And, BTW, I hope you're not wasting our time and yours via taxpayer funded equipment and facilities. Maybe we need to take a hard look at you and the relative value of what you produce in exchange for whatever it is you get in exchange for your "work" at UWM.

So do I....... No he won't !:)

@Nick Poulos...It is time for the intelligentsia to step forward and raise this discussion to a higher order. We need the debate to push the limits and breakthrough to new understanding. I really don't care if it leaves most on the sidelines, but it needs to happen. Thanks, my old friend.

Yeah, that's a good idea. You guys go figure it all out. Let us know when you come up with something.

Are we to be a self-governing nation controlled by "we the people" or will arrogant elites, intellectual or otherwise evade the constitution and impose their will through unelected bureaucracies who decide what you can do with your property, what healthcare options are available and what children are taught in the public schools?

@Adam Wienieski...When are you going to wake up and realize this nation was founded and has continued being ruled by the elite plutocracy. We have the best government that money can buy.

No Nick, what these comments mean is that no one cares about you and Lyle.

@Hudson Resident...You really need to stay out of conversations you really don't understand.

Just as a clarification, with automation comes higher education, fewer employees. The robot that welds, moves, stacks, etc has to be programmed, monitored, and diagnosed as problems occur. It eliminates more jobs that do the work and makes a few that take care of it. I just wanted to be clear on what shift is occurring in manufacturing.

Tempted to say "welcome to 1985", but I won't.

Just a clarification on the clarification above. The days when automation required a higher education to operate CNC equipment via "programming" are at least 10 years in the past. If you can operate a PC, you can set up most manufacturing equipment after going through a machine manufacturers training program and spending some time on the job. When you hear manufacturers complain about not being able find people "educated" enough to fill positions, they're generally referring to the kind of education that comes out of tech schools, not universities - not "programmers".

The same scenario in terms of skill levels and reduction in required manpower applies to all the other facets of business as well - not just manufacturing. Office work, assembly, warehousing and distribution (aka logistics) have been and will continue to be similarly effected.

There's only one long term solution - wage parity between those in this country and those in the countries where most manufacturing is moving now. Until that happens, we'll be on a continual cycle of innovation that ultimately leads to manufacturing elsewhere. That's not sustainable.

As a single individual it would be entirely possible for me to coordinate product production and distribution to customers in this country utilizing entities in China. I could do so, at this point, for approximately 2/3 the cost of doing so here and my delivery schedule would be close...

...what it would be if I produced and distributed domestically. The quality of the product would be as good or better than what I could produce here. This is not uncommon and it's becoming easier every day to do so as facilitators from China, Indonesia, Viet Nam and elsewhere aggressively pursue this kind of business.

You could attempt to regulate away some of the wage disparity, but every time you do that, you create a situation whereby our ability to sell to markets (and the real growth consumer markets are in these same countries) is going to be hampered in the same fashion. You also effectively decrease the standard of living for those here by increasing the cost of what they consume. Those are the trade-offs associated with attempting to create artificial parity. The degree to which those trade-offs are an acceptable alternative is a subjective judgement call. Ultimately, the overall condition of our economy will not improve by doing so, but the perception of maintaining or improving "wages" without taking into account the actual cost of doing so will probably lead some to suggest that's what we need to do.

@bob McBride...You have struck a bell of clarity again. To deny the global aspects is just plain foolishness. You are correct that, other than military hardware and systems, there is nothing that someone else can't do. I have seen people argue that because we are such innovators that we will come up with a technical solutions to our economic disparity. What they fail to realize is that we are not the only innovators. As someone who specialized in process systems, I found that the real skill wasn't in running the production machinery, but maintaining it; that's where special training and skill is required. Since most manufacturing plants no longer maintain large maintenance staffs, there is considerable opportunity for providing contract maintenance services. Other areas of opportunity exist in updating energy management systems. This is all part of transitioning to a service economy. Although we are transitioning, we shouldn't lose sight that we need to continue manufacturing the products and systems that require the skill and expertise to maintain them. For example, I can no longer work on my car because the systems are beyond my skill level. Although I am a proponent of higher education, we are overly endowed with BA and BS degrees for the needs of society. I really don't care if the specialized skills are gained in secondary schools or post secondary, probably be better in learned in the secondary system. Maybe we should adopt the German education model.

Bob,
I respect what you say and the attitude with which you do, but there are many "all inclusive" statements that you have made about outsourcing that the local businesses that I work with would refute. Heck, Ron Johnson wouldn't agree with the service, timeliness, and quality statements. I know, I met him and listen to him talk to a manufacturing assoc. prior to his election. Putting that aside, I disagree with your statement about education and skills necessary to run the equipment in manufacturing. The reason, every time I have a speaker in from a local manufacturer they tell me different that what you are saying. I am not sure what you do, but I imagine that there are areas of manufacturing and industry where your statements hold true. I believe that those are highly specialized massed production environments. Let me know if I am wrong, Because I like to keep my students up to date on the trends for their futures.

Lyle,
I like the German model. Problem, most parents wouldn't like it. Major issue, tracking their child into a field they don't want them to be in. Vicariously living through the child?

Say What?, I deal with a cross section of manufacturers (what's left of them) in the state and a lot of companies who used to manufacture here and no longer do, but do maintain either partial assembly or distribution centers. I can tell you that the majority of equipment I see out in the places I deal with and the ones that are used in the manufacturing of products I provide can be set up and operated in the fashion I described. I'm sure there are applications out there where that's not the case, but I think that for companies that manufacture consumer goods, fasteners, packaging materials, paper products, food and beverage products, chemicals...the list goes on...the majority of those have situations similar to the ones I describe. That's not to say that within those organizations there may be a need for some people with specialized formal education or who need to be strong in certain disciplines, but that the openings I see most often are for folks who possess skills taught at the technical level - T&D style skills, maintenance, etc. On the other end of the spectrum, there's also, in some areas, a lack of folks who have very basic math and communication skills necessary to function on the manufacturing floor.

As regards the quality and delivery issues related to sourcing products off-shore that I mentioned, it's certainly possible for certain products, including those for which Wisconsin was once known - printing being one of them. (cont'd)

(cont'd). In some industries, it's relatively new and not the predominant way of doing things, but it is gaining ground. As a manufacturer himself, I'm sure Ron isn't going to concede the quality issue, but in truth there is a relatively large breadth of products that not only can be produced cheaper and better off shore, but for which there are literally no longer reliable domestic sources. China, in particular, has upgraded it's distribution to the point where the amount of time one has to wait for finished product for a lot of items has eaten into one of the last advantages domestic suppliers have had when considered as a source for products.

I don't know what type of businesses you're talking to. If these are folks who produce prototypes, small run custom products of some sort, highly specialized equipment, it would make sense that they'd need more highly educated folks in various positions. But, again, based on the cross section of manufacturers I deal with, most fall into the category I described. They do tend to run a line of similar products run on a limited number of machines. They also tend to employ more people than do the job shops that would be more apt to have needs like those you describe.

It may be that we'll experience a growth in the number of job shops here, since I don't think mass production is coming back here anytime soon. But, again, I think technical education will suffice for many positions in those types of companies.

@Say What...I don't think we could transition overnight to the German system, but as we continue to confront education and employment challenges and opportunities, people will take the pragmatic approach.

@Bob McBride...You nailed it. My experience mirrors yours. As a matter of fact one of my businesses was job shopping custom process controls. I had my paid assemblers but I contracted with licensed EEs who operated as contractors.That was over twenty years ago and I haven't seen any significant change in the basic paradigm.

Say What, can you describe the kinds of businesses you're hearing from and what, specifically, it is they're telling you they're looking for?

Bob,
I am mainly dealing with businesses under 200 workers, typically in the range from 20-150 but with some as large as 1,000's of employees. The ones that I am placing students with are looking for what I told you before. I placed students into apprenticeships during the worst of the layoffs. I just ran into a guy today that said he would be able to place anyone with qualified machining credentials as well as looking for students to apprentice. The area I am in has seen a lot of line type manufacturing leave and lots of hi tech or hi skill jobs return.

Where is Walker? You won't find him where you have your head stuck!

Thanks for the info MIST , always enjoy reading the facts that you provide.

I knew the real you would eventually surface from beneath all the high minded fluff, Nick.

Sterile and impotent? Sounds like a personal problem that you've got going there Nick boy.

You should probably go lie down for awhile, Nick. Might be a good idea if someone stashed the car keys out of reach as well. Hang in there - this too shall pass.

Well thankfully we have you here to lend a hand with the substance, Nick. However if it develops into a burdensome issue, please feel free to discharge yourself of any obligation you might be feeling to stick around and take a break to clean up a bit.

Scott Walker has more class in his pinky finger they you Bucky will ever have.

Keith ... Walker has no class or integrity. Walkers a crook and a loser. He will soon be calling ManPower looking for a job. Tell us what a classy guy he is after the recall after he's dismissed from office. The people that he appointed also had class and integrity and are now under investigation for stealing monies from the vets ... how low can you go ? ... and the other classy guy wanted to have sex with a 17 year old boy. These are walkers classy buddies. Keith ... Birds of the feather flock together.

God almighty, someone please pass me the barf bag....

Amazing, isn't it, Hudson? Particularly when you consider this is the work of someone involved in our university system.

Nick, seriously, beliefs aside, take the time to format your comment so it doesn't look like something some tween pecked out on her Hello Kitty smartphone. For a guy who wants to be a discussion facilitator or whatever, you do a heck of a bad job selling your abilities in that regard.

Where do I find the 'Hello Kitty Smartphone'?

Here you go, Jay:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S14jlkEvmY

Governor Walker will win this nonsense recall and a second term as well in 2014.
Count on it!

Keith you must be deaf , dumm, and blind.

mourningmist.... please do some research on when and who hired pierich and stop blaming Gov. Walker for everything.... Who would have thought someone who earned a purple heart would steal from a Veteran's fund....... give it a rest and be glad that Gov. Walker has the integrity to call for an investigation when he is informed of something unlike dems who would sweep it under the rug.

@Cynthia

Ah, three little friends all together-Walker, Pierick and Timmy back 2002.

Little birds that flock together. ......

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/walker-staff-probe-leads-to-charges-for-three-men/article_a334c030-37b8-11e1-86a4-0019bb2963f4.html

mourningmist will you ever learn to read?

Pierick, 48, worked as an administrative assistant for the Department of Public Instruction in an office that oversaw education for homeless children. Patrick Gasper, a DPI spokesman, said Pierick was hired in October 2011 and fired Thursday. Gasper added that Pierick passed a background check when he was hired, and said Pierick did not work directly with children.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/walker-staff-probe-leads-to-charges-for-three-men/article_a334c030-37b8-11e1-86a4-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1ivllBSAF

mourningmist if you read the article or many other ones instead of blogs you would realize that of the 3 only 1 was appointed by Gov. Walker.... also who would think that someone that earned a Purple Heart would steal from a Veteran's fund.... So do you think Government should not hire Veteran's especially ones that have earned medals? How narrow minded of you to think someone can judge a person character 10 years down the road....

Simply put mourningmist it's appalling how you blame Gov. Walker for this when he is the one that asked for the investigation when he was informed by his former Chief of Staff... Nothing like accusing someone of being guilty for not reason.....

BTW your pierich the 'partner' which was NOT hired or appointed by Gov. Walker and had nothing to do with Gov. Walkers administration is a liberal....

Walker's habit of cronyism should include a better vetting process.

@Cynthia 10:15 pm on Sunday, January 8, 2012

http://m.jsonline.com/?cid=136917278&ua=android&dc=smart&c=y

...Russell played a role in County Board campaigns, as well. Olen managed the 2007 board campaign of Chris Kujawa and said Russell was an adviser to the campaign. Thursday's criminal charges against Russell said he had control over Kujawa's campaign bank accounts and took $3,000 for personal use. Then, the complaint said, Russell used money intended for a county-run military appreciation day to repay Kujawa's campaign.

...

Russell wasn't listed in county records as treasurer for Kujawa's race or the County Board candidacy of Larry Spicer in 2007, from whom Russell is charged with stealing $550. It was Pierick who held the formal title as Kujawa's treasurer. Russell's name, however, is attached to a copy of a bank statement for Kujawa.

.....

Supervisor Patricia Jursik, who defeated Kujawa, remains upset at what she views as the intervention of Walker and Russell in the County Board race.

"I was incensed by the whole way it was going down," Jursik said.

Pierick was charged Thursday with luring a 17-year-old Waukesha boy to send cellphone pictures of the boy's genitals in 2010. Russell was listed as a co-conspirator in an unsuccessful attempt to lure the boy to Russell's van for a sexual encounter, but Russell was not charged in that case......

If you are a Green Bay Packer fan, when a player such as Eric Walden is charged with a crime, do you hold Coach Mike McCarthy responsible? Do you consider the fans as guilty as the player. Stop spewing nonsense Bucky.

Johnny Jolli was also charged with 4 crimes but I didn't realize that it was my night to watch him. I don't see the correlation between a domestic dispute with Walden and a man that was appointed by Walker that stole money from public citizens that was supposed to go to our veterans.

Seems the felons and pedophiles are anti-walker........... /just sayin'

http://www.putwisconsinfirst.com/sexoffenders/